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02 March 2021

#502: Jordan Peterson on Rules for Life, Psychedelics, The Bible, and Much More

11Frameworks
14Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take21:30

Don't casually denigrate what you can't replace: the Christmas argument

Tim opens with the quotation a friend of his has memorised: the purpose of life is to find a mode of being so meaningful that the fact that life is suffering is no longer relevant. Peterson accepts the sentiment, noting it is hard in proportion to the suffering you are undergoing and not always achievable. He then explains his conservative bent: people need to search for meaning because they get corrupted by suffering when their life is not meaningful — you cannot torture an animal forever without it lashing out, and if nothing in your life speaks to you, there is still going to be suffering you cannot talk yourself out of. That is why another Beyond Order rule is do not casually denigrate social institutions or creative achievement. His case study is an atheist friend, born a communist and raised in Poland, who objected to his family's atheistic Christmas traditions on grounds of logical coherence. Peterson's reply: fine, do not do it — then what happens? Then you have another weekday. You lose Christmas. Now you are logically coherent, wonderful, but you have lost Christmas. The parallel is young couples saying they do not need a piece of paper: really, that is the depth of thought you have put into this — you are not going to mark this permanence with conscious awareness, social celebration, community sanction and a beautiful ceremony? Not wanting a church wedding is fair enough, he grants, then adds: good luck filling in the hole.

  • Peterson accepts the sentiment that a sufficiently meaningful mode of being makes the suffering of life beside the point.
  • The search for meaning is downstream of real suffering, because an unmeaningful life corrupts the person living it.
  • A Beyond Order rule is do not casually denigrate social institutions or creative achievement, with both phrases chosen carefully.
  • The Christmas case shows a logically sound objection producing a purely negative outcome.
  • Marriage bundles four functions — conscious awareness of permanence, social celebration, community sanction, ceremony — none of which the piece-of-paper objection addresses.
  • The standing challenge to anyone removing a structure is: good luck filling in the hole.

it seems to me that the purpose of life is to find a mode of being that is so meaningful that the fact that life…

Tim Ferriss · 22:00

people need to search for meaning because they get corrupted by suffering if their life isn't meaningful

Jordan Peterson · 23:30

well then you have another weekday you lose christmas well great it's like now you're logically coherent wonderful but you've lost christmas

Jordan Peterson · 26:30
#meaning#suffering#institutions#tradition#beyond-order

Explainer· 4

Explainer08:30

Nietzsche on morality as cowardice, and why the best people are dangerous

Tim raises Peterson's use of Nietzsche's claim that most morality is cowardice. Peterson unpacks it directly: if you do not have the courage to commit a crime, not committing it does not make you moral, it just means you are afraid. He extends the point to mob violence — people riot because they do not think they will get caught, which reveals that their ordinary law-abidingness was fear of punishment rather than morality. Nietzsche, he notes, was careful to distinguish mere obedience from morality, and did not regard obedience as always a form of cowardice, because it can also be a source of discipline. Not committing a crime because you are too afraid to is probably better than committing it, but it does not speak to the essence of morality. The constructive version Peterson says he learned in part from Nietzsche is that there is a real utility in being able to do virtually anything and then controlling yourself. His exemplar is a close friend who has been a rock to him: also from northern Alberta, from a poverty-stricken background, worked in lead smelters and on oil rigs, went to university, then spent years as a social worker with delinquents across Canada. Tough as nails and a good disciplinarian, and also a very compassionate person — a moral person, in Peterson's judgement, because there is a real danger to him and he keeps it under control.

  • Nietzsche's point is that an uncommitted crime you were too afraid to commit tells you nothing about your morality.
  • Rioting exposes the difference: remove the expectation of punishment and the behaviour changes.
  • Obedience is not always cowardice — Nietzsche allowed that it can also be a source of discipline.
  • The transferable standard is being able to do virtually anything and then controlling yourself.
  • Peterson's exemplar is a friend who is tough as nails, compassionate, not a coward, not afraid, not weak.

well if you don't have the courage if you don't have the courage to commit a crime it doesn't mean you're moral for not doing…

Jordan Peterson · 08:30

there there's there's a certain utility in being able to do virtually anything and then to control yourself and that's something i learned in part…

Jordan Peterson · 09:30

the best people i've ever met are dangerous people

Jordan Peterson · 09:30
#nietzsche#morality#courage#self-control#character
Explainer14:30

Consult your resentment: it is revelatory

Tim reads back Peterson's own line — consult your resentment, it is revelatory — and asks him to distinguish anger from resentment. Peterson points to rule 11 of Beyond Order: do not allow yourself to become resentful, deceitful or arrogant, which he calls the evil triad. Resentment is a bad emotion but a useful one, because you can learn a lot by noticing that it occurs. It tells you one of exactly two things: either someone is treading on your territory and something needs to be done about it, or you need to grow the hell up and stop complaining. It is not obvious which, and figuring that out is the work. The cost of leaving it unresolved is both moral and physical — you can harbour resentment for unlived life for a very long period and all it does is corrupt you, and because the body hyper-prepares for conflict you burn psychophysiological resources maintaining it. His prescription is to aim at a resentment-free existence, which means taking up enough space in a world where everyone competes for everyone else's attention and time. He also names the subtler failure: because it is easy to think you are better than you are, an insult that should register may not, so you never say anything, never do anything, and never fix it.

  • Rule 11 of Beyond Order names resentment, deceit and arrogance as the evil triad.
  • Resentment carries a binary message: your territory is being encroached, or you need to grow up.
  • Which of the two applies is not self-evident, and determining it is the actual work.
  • Unresolved resentment for unlived life corrupts you and burns real physiological resources.
  • The target is a resentment-free existence, which requires taking up enough space.
  • Wanting to think well of yourself can hide the insult from you entirely, so nothing gets fixed.

consult your resentment it is revelatory

Tim Ferriss · 14:30

resentment tells you one of two things one is that you're that someone's treading on your territory and something needs to be done about it…

Jordan Peterson · 15:30

you can you can harbor resentment for for unlived life for for a very very long period of time and all it does is corrupt…

Jordan Peterson · 16:00
#resentment#anger#beyond-order#emotional-diagnostics#maturity
Explainer37:00

Openness is not a free upgrade: the trait, the tradeoff, and unearned wisdom

Asked whether the openness increases produced by psychedelics would not be straightforwardly positive, Peterson answers: depends on how neurotic you are. He defines the trait — creativity and verbal fluency together, associated with verbal IQ — and situates it among the five: extraversion as positive emotion, neuroticism as negative emotion, agreeableness as compassion versus predatory aggression, conscientiousness as dutifulness and orderliness, and openness as intellect, interest in ideas and creativity. Then he refuses the inference: you might think the more of that the better, but that is not how nature works, and you can undo yourself by being open. His evolutionary argument is that there would not be variation in creativity if creativity were not dangerous, and there are many people very low in openness for a reason. Two costs are named. Open people struggle to catalyse an identity because they are protean, shift shapes constantly and are interested in everything, making it very hard to pursue one thing. And if you are high in negative emotion, openness becomes a curse, because exposure to uncertainty makes the body prepare for anything, which is expensive and physiologically demanding. Peterson diagnoses Tim as unambiguously high in openness given that he is entrepreneurial and interested in ideas, adding the conditional that carries the whole idea: if you can manage it, it is a great trait. When Tim describes the one-dose shift from the 50th to the 85th percentile as a major neurological rewiring, Peterson answers with Jung — beware of unearned wisdom.

  • Openness is creativity plus verbal fluency, associated with verbal IQ, and one of the Big Five alongside extraversion, neuroticism, agreeableness and conscientiousness.
  • More openness is not straightforwardly better; you can undo yourself by being open.
  • Variation in creativity exists because creativity is dangerous, and low openness has real advantages.
  • Open people are protean and interested in everything, which makes catalysing a single identity and pursuit very hard.
  • High neuroticism turns openness into a curse, because facing uncertainty forces the body to prepare for anything.
  • Peterson's verdict on the trait is conditional: if you can manage it, it is a great trait — and Jung's beware of unearned wisdom is the caution against acquiring it in one dose.

openness isn't much fun if you're high in neuroticism all right because you continually undermine yourself

Jordan Peterson · 37:30

you might think the more of that the better but no that isn't how nature works you can undo yourself by being open

Jordan Peterson · 38:30

jung said beware of unearned wisdom

Jordan Peterson · 40:30
#big-five#openness#neuroticism#creativity#personality
Explainer51:30

The hierarchy of values, and why Cain and Abel is one paragraph you can think about forever

Asked whether he recommends studying the Bible to everyone, Peterson declines to recommend anything to everyone but argues our culture grew out of the Bible, so if you want to know why you think as you do, that is where to look. Thoughts, he says, are greater than you are — it is rare to think something no one else has thought, and everyone is the unconscious proponent of some philosopher. Thought exists in a hierarchy organised around value, and a fundamental value is one on which many other values depend. His graded illustration: your wife skips her turn at the dishes and it is a minor league ontological shock, but once does not destabilise you because little depends on it; ten times and you start questioning her commitment, then her honesty, then the relationship; but an affair is a real shock, because you have modelled your plans and even your perception of the world on the assumption of fidelity, and when that is demolished the plans dissolve and uncertainty comes rushing in. The deeper you go, the more the values look religious — the point he says he tried to impress on Sam Harris. His exemplar text is Cain and Abel: a paragraph long, containing fratricidal murder with a genocidal twist, and it is all resentment. You make sacrifices on faith that fate will smile on you; sometimes the reward does not come, and the bitterness can grow until it destroys the ideal.

  • Peterson argues the culture is grounded in the Bible, so it is where to look to understand why you think as you do.
  • Everyone is the unconscious proponent of some philosopher, and thoughts are in that sense greater than the thinker.
  • Values form a hierarchy in which fundamental values are those many other values depend on.
  • The dishes-versus-affair example shows how destabilisation scales with how deep the violated assumption sits.
  • The deepest values are religious almost by definition, which is the point he pressed on Sam Harris.
  • Cain and Abel compresses fratricide, resentment and the destruction of the ideal into one paragraph he says he has never recovered from.

everyone is the unconscious proponent of some philosopher

Jordan Peterson · 53:30

if your partner has an affair that tends to be quite a shock because you've modeled your plans for behavior and even for perception of…

Jordan Peterson · 55:00

the deepest questions are religious questions and the bible is the best answer we have and if you don't like that well fine do better…

Jordan Peterson · 57:00
#bible#value-hierarchy#cain-and-abel#resentment#sam-harris

Story· 2

Story02:00

The librarian who handed a fourteen-year-old socialist Ayn Rand

Peterson opens with his own formation. He grew up in a small town in northern Alberta cold enough that one winter had thirty consecutive days below minus forty. The province was solidly Progressive Conservative except for one seat: Grant Notley, leader of the NDP, elected not because he was a socialist but because he was a really good man, and the only opposition in the entire province for a decade or more. His wife Sandy Notley was a New Englander and an anomaly in the town, an outspoken New England intellectual who was the junior high school librarian. All the delinquents — Peterson includes himself in the category — hung out in the library, because she treated them like adults. Peterson started working for the NDP at fourteen and ran for vice president of the party the same year. Sandy Notley began handing him books she thought would be good for him: Ayn Rand, despite being a socialist herself, because she thought he would be smart enough to see through Rand; plus Huxley, Orwell and Solzhenitsyn. He read One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich at thirteen or fourteen. Until then he had been an omnivorous but undirected reader, hiding science fiction behind a textbook in class. Her daughter Rachel Notley later became premier of Alberta.

  • Peterson's first serious intellectual guide was the junior high librarian, who treated the town's delinquents like adults.
  • She recommended Rand to a socialist teenager specifically because she trusted him to see through it.
  • Huxley, Orwell and Solzhenitsyn were his introduction to serious political and psychological thought, and he found it extremely exciting.
  • He worked for the NDP for four years starting at fourteen, running for party vice president in his first year.
  • The recommended-books list on his website is close to a hundred titles and sells hundreds of books a month.
  • He argues a reader could get a whole education from that list, though not an education in every discipline.

she was quite outspoken uh new england intellectual um and she was our librarian in our junior high school and all the delinquents and me…

Jordan Peterson · 03:30

she said she thought i would be smart enough to see through rand

Jordan Peterson · 04:30

people can get a whole education if they read those hundred books that i have on my website

Jordan Peterson · 07:00
#mentorship#reading#formative-influences#alberta#solzhenitsyn
Story59:00

Writing as sustained thought, Frankl's life raft, and the new point B

Asked how he composes stories so they survive transmission, Peterson says that mostly when writing he is trying to figure something out — though over the years he spends more time communicating ideas and less working them out. Maps of Meaning was pure figuring out: he worked on it from 1985 to 1999, about three hours a day, and in his twenties thought about it thirteen hours a day, with ideas running through his mind at a rate far higher than he is now capable of. He was trying to understand malevolence, affected by accounts of the Second World War and the Soviet Union. He lectures without notes by holding a question in mind — the first biblical lecture is two hours on the first sentence of Genesis, and the lecture is the exploration of what it means, with the process of thinking communicated alongside the conclusion. The books, he says, are written to him, which is why he thinks he has got away with giving advice: he is included in the population of idiots who need it. Tim shoehorns in Viktor Frankl, who cited finishing his book as a source of meaning in the camps, and asks whether Beyond Order served the same function through Peterson's illness. Absolutely — it was a life raft, and he was devastated when he finished it, which speaks to human motivation: we think that once we get to point B everything will be okay, and instead you need a new point B.

  • Peterson wrote Maps of Meaning from 1985 to 1999 at about three hours a day, purely as an exercise in sustained thought.
  • He was trying to understand malevolence, driven by accounts of the Second World War, the Soviet Union and China.
  • He lectures without notes by holding a question in mind and communicating the process of thinking it through, not just the answer.
  • His books are written to himself, which is why he thinks he has got away with giving advice.
  • Beyond Order was a life raft during his illness, after the loss of both the university post and the clinical practice.
  • Finishing it was devastating, which he generalises: reaching point B does not deliver the expected relief, because now you need a new point B.

i'm always mostly when i'm writing i'm trying to figure something out

Jordan Peterson · 59:30

the books are written to me you know which is why i think i've gotten away with giving advice

Jordan Peterson · 1:01:00

once i get to point b that's where you're headed everything will be okay it's like no that's not the case at all is that…

Jordan Peterson · 1:02:30
#writing#maps-of-meaning#viktor-frankl#motivation#lecturing

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway27:30

Clean up your room: proximal responsibility and the sixteen-year-old ideologue

Asked what constructive criticism of a social institution looks like, Peterson notes he got well known partly for telling people to clean up their room — and immediately volunteers that his own closet has been a mess for three years. The principle underneath is an English common law idea about the distribution of power: there are distinct responsibilities of family, community, town, state, federal government and international organisations, and you want the most proximal level possible to take responsibility for a given enterprise. Personally applied, that means starting with what is under your control, and specifically with changing the things that will hurt you if the changes go wrong. He calls it better to put your life together than to parade around as a social activist, most of which he thinks is fraudulent. But he is explicit that this does not bar community involvement — you have to earn the right, because operating beyond your competence produces catastrophic mistakes. Practise locally until competent, then if you dare move out a little bit. His own conversion came at sixteen: after years with the NDP he woke up one day with a full ideology in his head and thought, what the hell do you know — you have no family, no experience, no job, you are a pup. Simultaneously he sat on his local college board among conservative immigrant businessmen, and respected them because they had made something of themselves, while the activists struck him as resentful as hell, noisy and self-righteous.

  • The rule derives from an English common law principle about which level of organisation should own a given responsibility.
  • The selection filter for personal change is to start with what will hurt you if it goes wrong.
  • Operating beyond your competence produces catastrophic mistakes, not merely mediocre ones.
  • Peterson does not forbid community involvement — he requires that the right be earned through demonstrated local competence.
  • At sixteen he could defend a full ideology verbally while having no family, job or experience, which is what made the fluency misleading.
  • Meeting the businessmen on his college board created cognitive dissonance severe enough to dislodge his politics.

i got well known i suppose in part because of my injunction to people that they clean up their room my closet by the way…

Jordan Peterson · 28:00

if you if you operate at a level that's beyond your competence all you're going to do is make catastrophic mistakes practice locally till you're…

Jordan Peterson · 29:30

i thought you guys are resentful as hell and you don't know anything you've never done anything but you're noisy and self-righteous

Jordan Peterson · 31:30
#responsibility#competence#activism#subsidiarity#clean-your-room
Takeaway1:05:00

Beyond Order: chaos, the dying king, the dragon, and the conscience that wakes you at four

Peterson derives the title from first principles. If you move towards something you value it, and you need a gradient of value to prioritise — so you live in a value world with two components, the Taoist yin and yang, order and chaos. You are in order when what you want to happen happens when you act, which reassures twice: you get what you want, and getting it validates your theory. That is why people hate to fail — you never know how far down your hierarchy of presuppositions a failure will echo, and in clinical depression every minor failure means you are worthless. Chaos is the flood, a domain of terror and pain and also of unlimited possibility, because outside what you know is everything you do not know. Order taken too far becomes totalitarian: the dying king, dying for lack of the water of life, the old tyrant who can no longer see beyond his own presuppositions. His first book covered the pathologies of chaos, the second those of order; liberals are sensitive to one and conservatives to the other, and both are right. He closes on Pinocchio, where the whale breathes fire — a dragon, because a human being is a creature that faces the dragon: it will burn you up, but it has what you need, so you mold yourself into the hero. Trying that story means two things: practise love, and do not say what you know to be untrue.

  • Action requires a gradient of value, which puts you permanently in a world of importance with two poles: order and chaos.
  • Failure costs twice — you miss the outcome and you undermine the theory organising your perception and action.
  • Chaos is simultaneously the flood and the domain of unlimited possibility containing everything you do not know.
  • Extreme order becomes totalitarian: the dying king who can no longer see past his own presuppositions.
  • Liberals detect pathologies of order and conservatives pathologies of chaos, and both are right — there is no final solution.
  • The two-part instruction for living the hero story is practise love and do not say what you know to be untrue, with the conscience as the uncontrollable instrument that reports violations.

the value world as far as i can tell has two broad components the taoists talked about it as yin and yang and broadly speaking…

Jordan Peterson · 1:06:00

that's the dying king the king who's dying for lack of the water of life is the old tyrant who can no longer see beyond…

Jordan Peterson · 1:08:30

we face dragons forever that's what a human being is it's it's a creature that faces the dragon

Jordan Peterson · 1:10:30

it's not you you're responsible to it it holds you accountable it transcends you so what is it well if you think it's nothing well…

Jordan Peterson · 1:17:30
#order-and-chaos#beyond-order#hero-myth#truth#conscience

tactic· 3

tactic10:30

How he stays composed under attack: watching mode and the attention switch

Tim asks how Peterson maintains composure in the many adversarial interviews he has done while still not rolling over on his positions. Peterson credits two training environments. First, clinical psychology: twenty thousand hours listening to people and maintaining composure under very stressful circumstances. Second, a couple of years of local television work with a good producer who helped him realise that anger plays very badly in a public forum like video. He is emphatic that composure is not the absence of feeling — he is boiling inside, a very emotional person, way too much, and finds it unbelievably stressful, but can detach from it to some degree. Curiosity is the other ingredient: he likes to watch. When people really go after him he can snap into a different mode — okay, I do not know what you are up to, so I am going to watch you and figure out what you are up to. Normally you accept a person's persona and do not look behind it, but adversarial behaviour licenses looking behind the scene. Asked how, he gives the transferable distinction: thinking means walking down a programmatic trail, whereas paying attention means opening your eyes and letting your mind go where it will, with ideas popping up in your field of consciousness. In that mode he is reading facial expression, posture and tone of voice, and picking up patterns.

  • Peterson attributes his composure to twenty thousand clinical hours plus a television producer's lesson that anger reads terribly on video.
  • He describes himself as boiling inside and a very emotional person, so composure is detachment, not absence of feeling.
  • Adversarial behaviour triggers a deliberate switch into watching mode rather than into argument.
  • Thinking walks a programmatic trail; paying attention opens the field and lets insight arrive unbidden.
  • Most of the signal he uses in that mode is non-verbal — expression, posture, tone — assembled into patterns.
  • He does not run the mode continuously, partly because he sometimes does not want to know what people are up to.

he helped me realize that anger plays very badly in a public forum like video

Jordan Peterson · 12:00

i can snap into a different mode which is okay i don't know what you're up to so i'm just going to watch you and…

Jordan Peterson · 12:30

if you if you're thinking you're kind of walking down a programmatic trail if you're paying attention you just open your eyes and let your…

Jordan Peterson · 14:00
#composure#attention#nonverbal#clinical-training#adversarial-media
tactic18:00

Don't hide things in the fog — and what a messy kitchen tells you

His scripted version to a partner: we were out for dinner and you said something snarky which I did not think was appropriate — now I might be hypersensitive and touchy and immature, and maybe you hit me in a weak spot, or maybe you are playing some power game, why don't we figure that out. He acknowledges immediately that this is messy and says the peculiar thing about him is that he will not let those things go. Tim probes whether that means he has no aversion to it, and Peterson corrects him: he has a horrible aversion to conflict. What he has learned, partly through clinical training, is that some things simply get worse if you do not address them, and that he can see where things are going. His environmental tell is domestic disorder — a kitchen that is a mess, food that is not fresh in the fridge, packages on shelves unopened since the wedding — which signals a relationship where the bargaining about who does what was never fought through. You have to have those fights to put things in order, or you get a worse fight later. His motive is counterintuitive: he calls things out because he does not want more conflict. He would rather have genuine peace than the peace people obtain by sweeping things under the carpet. That is the Beyond Order chapter called don't hide things in the fog.

  • The template conversation names the specific incident and includes your own possible immaturity as a live hypothesis.
  • Peterson has a horrible aversion to conflict and does the confrontation anyway, because unaddressed things get worse.
  • A chaotic kitchen is diagnostic of a domestic bargain that was never negotiated.
  • You have to have the small fights to put things in order, or you inherit a worse fight in the future.
  • His motive for calling things out is conflict minimisation, not conflict seeking.
  • Most peace is obtained by sweeping things under the carpet; genuine peace is very very very hard to obtain.

some things if you don't address them they just get worse

Jordan Peterson · 19:30

that's too much chaos in the kitchen something's wrong well what's wrong well there's something wrong in the domestic relationship

Jordan Peterson · 20:30

i don't want more conflict i'd rather have genuine peace which is very very very hard to obtain people generally obtain peace by sweeping things…

Jordan Peterson · 21:00
#difficult-conversations#conflict#relationships#beyond-order#avoidance
tactic24:30

The life scan he runs on every lost client

Peterson describes the practical opening move he uses with lost clients, walking Tim through it in the second person: okay, let us look at your life for a minute — do you have an intimate relationship? What about your family, which could be married with kids or could be the family of your birth, your siblings and parents; how is that functioning, do you have anyone there? Do you have a job, or maybe a career if you are fortunate, at least one that keeps body and soul together, and maybe where there is some chance of advancement and hope? Do you know how to use your time outside of work productively? Do you take care of your mental and physical health? Do you manage the temptations, drug and alcohol use, effectively? Are you as educated as you are intelligent? He concedes the list is mundane in some sense and that you can look beyond all those standard answers for meaning, but insists that if you are overwhelmed by life, anxious and suffering, this is a good place to start. His justification is empirical rather than moral: these are standard patterns of activity in the world, they are what people do, the best we have been able to manage — and because you are a human being like other human beings, you are going to suffer for an absent one. That is also why he thinks casual assaults on those structures are unhelpful unless you have something better.

  • The scan covers intimate relationship, family, job or career, use of time outside work, mental and physical health, temptation management, and education relative to intelligence.
  • Peterson describes himself as very practical in the clinical role and runs this before anything abstract.
  • The domains are justified by the fact that they are what people do and the best we have managed, not by moral argument.
  • A missing domain costs you whether or not you endorse it, because you are a human being like other human beings.
  • You can look beyond the standard answers for meaning, but not instead of them.
  • The Self Authoring program at selfauthoring.com productises the same sequence — autobiography, trait assessment, plan for the future.

i'd say to you okay well let's look at your life for a minute um do you have an intimate relationship

Jordan Peterson · 24:30

do you know how to use your time outside of work productively do you take care of your mental and physical health do you manage…

Jordan Peterson · 25:00

if you're overwhelmed by life anxious and and suffering that's a good place to start

Jordan Peterson · 25:30
#life-audit#therapy#meaning#self-authoring#structure

debate· 1

debate31:30

Psychedelics as Pandora's box — and why prohibition failed anyway

Tim pivots to psychedelics, noting Peterson's familiarity with Rick Strassman's intravenous DMT work and the psilocybin research at Johns Hopkins with Roland Griffiths and Matt Johnson. Peterson explains the background: his PhD was in clinical psychology but his research for eight or nine years was drug and alcohol abuse, concentrating on alcohol — which is like water in that it crosses the blood-brain barrier freely, bathes every cell and has polysystemic effects, so studying it forces you to learn every system drugs act on. He maps the categories: benzodiazepines, barbiturates and alcohol as anxiolytics, analgesics like heroin, psychomotor stimulants — and then the hallucinogens, a whole other universe. He is also interested in religious experience, and calls it a bottomless mystery that there are agents that reliably produce it. Told about the Hopkins study administering roughly 30 milligrams of synthetic psilocybin to religious leaders of different faiths, his reaction is immediate: it is no wonder it was all made illegal, it is Pandora's box. He points to the 1960s, when nobody knew what to do with psychedelics entering the culture and it knocked Timothy Leary sideways — noting he himself held Leary's old position at Harvard. But he does not conclude in favour of prohibition: driving them underground has not been fruitful, and one consequence of the war on drugs is 500 psychoactive chemicals instead of 20 or 30, because chemists keep chasing the laws. Tim extends the argument to black-market MDMA and its environmental costs.

  • Peterson's doctoral research was in alcoholism, which required learning the motivational and emotional systems every drug of abuse acts on.
  • He classifies drugs of abuse as pain-relieving, anxiety-relieving and psychomotor-stimulant, with hallucinogens as a separate universe.
  • He calls it a bottomless mystery that certain agents reliably produce religious experiences.
  • His reaction to psilocybin studies on religious leaders is that it is Pandora's box, and no wonder it was all made illegal.
  • He held Timothy Leary's old position at Harvard and cites the 1960s as evidence nobody knew what to do with the compounds.
  • He nonetheless rejects prohibition: chemists chase the laws, so the war on drugs multiplied the chemical space from 20 or 30 to around 500.

well it's no wonder it was all made illegal i mean it's pandora's box

Jordan Peterson · 35:30

one of the consequences of the war on drugs is now we have like 500 psychoactive chemicals instead of 20 or 30

Jordan Peterson · 43:30

there are agents that reliably produce religious experiences and no one knows what in the world to do about that

Jordan Peterson · 35:00
#psychedelics#psychopharmacology#drug-policy#psilocybin#religious-experience

topic· 1

topic43:00

Why reality is deeply strange, and what ontological shock actually costs

Asked to put words to his claim that reality is deeply strange, Peterson points to its narrative, religious and meaningful aspects, which we cannot understand scientifically because the scientific viewpoint excludes them. He thinks the best evidence comes from hallucinogenic experience. Humans have a biologically instantiated religious instinct; if you go deep enough into the psyche it becomes increasingly difficult to separate what you discover from reality. Most scientific phenomena are objective because many people experience them simultaneously, whereas hallucinogen-induced religious experiences are individually distinct and yet similar across people — and nobody knows what to do with that category. His example is Rick Strassman, who Peterson says terrified himself right out of DMT research because his subjects reported going somewhere else and seeing aliens, and refused the dream explanation: way more real than any dream, in fact more real than life. He also describes a drawing his six-year-old son made: pine forest on one side, a town of amanita muscaria mushroom houses on the other, a river between them, and out of the river a beanstalk climbing to heaven where Saint Peter waits — a shamanic image of chaos and order meeting, drawn by a child with no religious education. The segment lands on Roland Griffiths's term ontological shock, which Peterson says produces PTSD and appears in the literature as disruption of fundamental axioms: half terror, half awe, which is why trips go bad. Precautions reduce the chance of a bad trip but leave the long-term sequelae.

  • The narrative, religious and value-laden aspects of reality are excluded by the scientific viewpoint rather than explained by it.
  • Hallucinogenic religious experiences are individually distinct yet consistently similar, which does not fit the objectivity criterion of science.
  • Strassman's DMT subjects reported experiences more real than life, in nearly every case, which Peterson says drove him out of the research.
  • His son's drawing reproduces the chaos-order-tree-of-life structure with no religious instruction, which Peterson treats as evidence the structure is native.
  • Ontological shock produces PTSD and appears in the literature as disruption of fundamental axioms.
  • Half of ontological shock is terror and half is awe, and safety precautions manage the moment but not the long-term sequelae.

i mean rick strassmann he terrified himself right out of the dmt research as far as i could tell because all his subjects came back…

Jordan Peterson · 46:30

well ontological shock produces post-traumatic stress disorder there's a whole literature on antolo they don't call it ontological shock it's generally termed something like disruption…

Jordan Peterson · 51:00

one half of that's terror and the other half is awe and that's why trips can go bad

Jordan Peterson · 51:30
#ontological-shock#religious-experience#dmt#chaos-and-order#consciousness