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Michael Schur19 January 2022

#565: Michael Schur, Creator of “The Good Place” — How SNL Trains Writers, His TV University at “The Office,” Lessons from Lorne Michaels, Wisdom from David Foster Wallace, and Exploring Moral Philosophy with “How to Be Perfect”

7Frameworks
14Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take2:09:00

Ethics and Civics Matter More Than Another Advanced Class

Schur argues that ethics and civics are woefully undertaught foundations of a functioning society. Even basic exposure to ethical theories gives people a structure for examining everyday choices, including the frequent occasions when they still choose poorly.

  • Schur would prioritize ethics over some advanced school subjects
  • Civics explains how governments work
  • Ethics examines how people treat one another
  • Basic theory provides useful scaffolding for daily problems

the two subjects that are woefully undertaught in this country and that are really the foundational underpinnings of everything that i think is important for…

Michael Schur · 2:09:30

i just recommend ethics as a as a life improvement strategy

Michael Schur · 2:10:30
#ethics education#civics#schools#society

Explainer· 4

Explainer01:30

How the Harvard Lampoon Tested Comedy on Merit

Michael Schur describes the Lampoon's staged audition: applicants wrote three pieces, received critiques, survived successive cuts, and faced an election. He tested its claimed meritocracy by identifying his first submission only with initials, and the staff advanced it without knowing who he was.

  • Writers submitted three short comedy pieces
  • Successive cuts narrowed the applicant pool
  • Schur used initials to obscure his identity
  • The staff judged whether the pieces were funny

the lampoon is this uh very old institution at harvard it was founded in i think 1876

Michael Schur · 01:30

they just were like are these things funny or are they not funny

Michael Schur · 05:00
#harvard lampoon#comedy writing#auditions
Explainer22:30

Why Infinite Jest Is Harder to Adapt Now

Schur once optioned Infinite Jest for a limited series but backed away when Wallace's estate became wary of Hollywood. He says a modern adaptation would need to repeat Wallace's feat: project forward from today's world with comparable insight, rather than simply reproduce a future whose dates have passed.

  • Schur considered an eight-hour limited series
  • He let the option lapse rather than discomfort the estate
  • The novel's imagined near future is now in the past
  • A new adaptation would require fresh fictional futurism

i don't want to do anything that would ever make any of you feel uncomfortable or or make you feel ill at ease so i…

Michael Schur · 23:30

you would sort of have to do your own version of what he did which is look at the world now and project forward from…

Michael Schur · 25:30
#infinite jest#adaptation#television#futurism
Explainer36:30

Why Sketch Skills Do Not Automatically Build a Sitcom

Schur contrasts a sketch's single premise and fast exit with the slow construction of recurring television characters. Jokes remain useful, but long-form work depends on motivations, relationships, consequences, and character growth that can sustain hundreds of episodes.

  • A sketch rapidly executes one comedic premise
  • Sketch characters need no meaningful tomorrow
  • Long-form characters must support recurring relationships
  • Motivation matters more than simply generating jokes

sketches are single ideas single comedic premises executed as quickly as possible

Michael Schur · 36:30

this is not about being funny like jokes are easy if you get a bunch of funny people in a room

Michael Schur · 39:00
#sketch comedy#sitcoms#storytelling#character
Explainer1:37:30

Jeremy Bentham Was More Than a Utilitarian Equation

Schur summarizes Bentham's utilitarianism as doing more good than bad, but chooses him as a dream dinner guest because he was also eccentric and playful. Bentham requested that his preserved body be displayed at a London university, wrote jaunty philosophical poems, and supported positions including animal rights and early equal-rights arguments.

  • Utilitarianism weighs good or happiness against suffering
  • Bentham arranged for his body to remain on display
  • A failed preservation led to a wax head
  • Schur sees him as unusually entertaining and comparatively progressive

utilitarianism essentially is do more good than bad

Michael Schur · 1:38:00

he was also a true weirdo like a truly weird guy

Michael Schur · 1:38:00
#jeremy bentham#utilitarianism#philosophers#ethics

Story· 6

Story16:30

The David Foster Wallace Friendship Schur Wishes He Rekindled

After Infinite Jest transformed Schur's view of writing, he invented a Harvard Lampoon award to bring David Foster Wallace to dinner. Their correspondence later faded, and Schur regrets not reaching out after both moved to California before Wallace died.

  • Infinite Jest changed how Schur thought about literature
  • The Lampoon award was created solely to invite Wallace
  • Wallace corresponded generously with many people
  • Schur regrets letting their contact lapse

something about it just altered my brain chemistry and changed the way that i thought about literature and writing and the world

Michael Schur · 17:00

i really do regret not sort of trying to rekindle our little epistolary friendship when i moved out to california

Michael Schur · 22:00
#david foster wallace#infinite jest#regret#writing
Story27:30

Why Schur Needed Escape Velocity from SNL

SNL offered Schur a prestigious, well-paid New York job that might never end, unlike most television work. A long-distance relationship, the end of his twenties, and a desire to grow creatively convinced him that staying comfortable could prevent the next chapter.

  • SNL could provide an unusually permanent television career
  • Schur's future wife was living in Los Angeles
  • He felt he had given his twenties to the show
  • Leaving created room for broader creative growth

snl is a little bit of a i guess you call like a golden handcuffs kind of a situation

Michael Schur · 28:30

if i didn't achieve escape velocity i might just stay there forever

Michael Schur · 29:00
#snl#career change#comfort zone#relationships
Story32:00

The Meeting That Made The Office Schur's TV University

After a treadmill of nearly identical Hollywood meetings, Schur spent two and a half unusually specific hours with Greg Daniels. He left believing Daniels could teach him to write, took the job despite doubts about adapting The Office, and describes the experience as a PhD-level education in story and character.

  • Daniels asked detailed questions about Schur's writing choices
  • The meeting felt distinct from standard general meetings
  • Schur prioritized learning over certainty that the show would work
  • Daniels taught plot, motivation, story, and character

i don't know if that guy's gonna offer me a job but if he does i'm gonna take it because i think he's gonna teach…

Michael Schur · 33:30

he taught a class he taught a phd level class and i soaked it all up

Michael Schur · 34:30
#greg daniels#the office#mentorship#television writing
Story57:30

How Ken Tremendous Became a Verified Fake Identity

The name Ken Tremendous appeared to Schur as a college joke and later became his privacy-minded internet identity. He used it on the sports blog Fire Joe Morgan and Twitter, where the platform eventually verified the fictional name despite knowing it was not his real one.

  • The contrast between an ordinary first name and Tremendous amused Schur
  • He adopted the name when online identity felt risky
  • Ken Tremendous fronted his sports writing
  • Twitter verified the acknowledged pseudonym

the name ken tremendous popped into my head as a funny name to use in something

Michael Schur · 58:00

i'm verified on twitter as an imaginary fictional personality

Michael Schur · 1:00:00
#ken tremendous#internet identity#twitter#sports writing
Story1:13:30

The $836 Bumper Dispute Behind The Good Place

Schur challenged a driver to forgo an $836 repair in exchange for a growing Hurricane Katrina donation, then felt that something about the campaign was wrong. Philosophers and friends exposed competing ethical readings, and Schur traced a decade of ethical study and The Good Place back to the incident.

  • A minor collision produced an $836 repair request
  • The proposed charity trade grew into a public campaign
  • Different philosophers offered conflicting moral analyses
  • Schur recognized his response as unfair whataboutism
  • The incident made ethics a lasting focus

i couldn't get over the idea that there was a right answer

Michael Schur · 1:18:30

there are ethical components to almost everything that happens and that we are better off when we pay attention to them

Michael Schur · 1:24:00
#ethics#the good place#hurricane katrina#moral philosophy
Story2:04:00

Todd May Became The Good Place's Philosophy Emergency Line

The writers found Todd May through his book Death while trying to understand whether morality matters to an immortal being. His clarity and congeniality turned one timely source into a lasting advisory relationship for the show and Schur's book, alongside UCLA philosopher Pamela Hieronymi.

  • Death addressed the morality of immortality
  • May explained difficult philosophy conversationally
  • The writers consulted him whenever a script raised a question
  • He later checked Schur's philosophical accuracy in the book

mortality gives sort of shape and definition to our lives because we know that everything ends

Michael Schur · 2:05:30

if we had a question about philosophy we would smash the glass pick up a red phone it would be connected directly to todd may

Michael Schur · 2:06:30
#todd may#the good place#philosophy advisor#immortality

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway1:25:30

Make Hard Ideas Accessible Without Talking Down to Readers

Schur wanted How to Be Perfect to do for moral philosophy what A Brief History of Time did for astrophysics. His goal was to synthesize valuable but often opaque primary texts into conversational writing while still treating readers like capable adults.

  • Dense source texts hide useful ideas from general readers
  • Accessibility does not require condescension
  • Basic ethical theories can improve ordinary decisions
  • Schur wrote after feeling unfinished when The Good Place ended

he talked to you like you were an adult with a brain

Michael Schur · 1:27:00

if you could somehow take what they wrote synthesize it and talk about it conversationally with people in a way that isn't condescending but is…

Michael Schur · 1:29:00
#how to be perfect#philosophy#accessible writing#stephen hawking
Takeaway1:50:30

SNL Failure Kept Success and Ego in a Narrow Range

Schur vividly recalls sketches dying during read-throughs while the only sound was pages turning. Repeated exposure to both bombs and hits thickened his skin, reminded him that creative stakes were not life or death, and prevented either success or failure from defining him.

  • A failed premise could leave nine more silent pages to endure
  • Frequent public failure reduced fear of later setbacks
  • The next failure remained close even after a hit
  • Even elite writers and performers bombed regularly

if you can survive it you get to the other side of it and nothing bothers you

Michael Schur · 1:54:00

your successes don't make you into a monster and your failures don't make you into a like a depressive person

Michael Schur · 1:56:00
#snl#failure#resilience#ego
Takeaway2:11:00

Why Schur Donated Every Dollar from How to Be Perfect

Schur felt it would be strange to personally profit from a book about ethics and becoming better. He committed his advance, royalties, foreign sales, and related speaking honoraria to charities including the IRC, Rainforest Trust, and World Central Kitchen.

  • Schur committed all of his book income to charity
  • The commitment includes multiple revenue types
  • Todd May also donated most of his payment
  • Recipients span humanitarian, environmental, and justice work

it would be really weird to personally profit from a book about ethics and being a better person

Michael Schur · 2:11:30
#how to be perfect#charity#book proceeds#ethics