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02 February 2023

#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans

11Frameworks
15Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Innovation6 steps

Core Gameplay Loop Anatomy

Find the one action people repeat forever, then build everything else as scaffolding around it.

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Marketing6 steps

Crowd-Doing Stretch Goals

Stop asking backers for money and start asking them for absurd deeds.

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Entrepreneurship5 steps

Fulfill the Promise Before Anything Else

You were backed to ship one thing; every party favour you add is a way to go out of business.

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Influence5 steps

Look What You Did

Convert casual fans into evangelists by putting the spotlight on them, not on your results.

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Strategy5 steps

Subtract Until the Baggage Is Gone

Keep halving the product until you find the version you were complicating for no reason.

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Sales5 steps

The Audience-Lover Partner Test

Only partner with people who would still entertain their audience if the money went to zero.

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Strategy6 steps

The Delight Budget

Lose money on the part customers keep for twenty years, and make every component a deliberate choice.

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Entrepreneurship5 steps

The End-to-End House

Outsource everything first, find the failure points, then hire smarter people to own each one.

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Innovation6 steps

The One-Question Playtest

Throw away the survey and ask only whether they wanted to play again.

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Innovation5 steps

The Players-in-the-Spotlight Test

Build the tool that makes people entertaining to each other, never the thing that entertains them.

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Mindset5 steps

You've Got a Violin, I've Got a Barn

Stop deliberating and put on the show tomorrow — you will learn more in five minutes than in five hours.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take32:30

Of the top ten Kickstarters of all time, only one company survived

Tim raises Lee's public warning about stretch goals — the creator who promises a t-shirt without any experience of manufacturing, fulfilment, SKUs or multiple sizes, and who now has an apparel business bolted onto a tabletop business they have not learned yet, plus the distraction cost on top. Lee confirms it and escalates. A couple of years before the interview he looked at the top ten Kickstarter campaigns of all time. Exploding Kittens was in that list — people constantly beat their money record, though nobody has beaten their backer count — and of those ten campaigns, his was the only company still in business. His diagnosis is the temptation that arrives with the money: before that much cash comes in, and in order to have earned it, creators feel an incredible pull to branch out, become a t-shirt company, send out posters, promise to hand-autograph every single instance of the product. Lee's counter is blunt: you are being backed to focus on fulfilling one item, so just do that. Stop giving people party favours, stop trying to be more popular, because the way you actually make those friends is by fulfilling the promise you made to them — and he says it is very rare that people do.

  • Tim's stretch-goal warning is that a t-shirt reward silently commits a first-time creator to an entire second industry.
  • Of the top ten Kickstarter campaigns of all time that Lee reviewed, Exploding Kittens was the only company still operating.
  • Nobody has beaten their number of backers, though several campaigns have raised more money.
  • The failure mechanism is the temptation to broaden that arrives with the money, before delivery has happened.
  • Lee's rule is that you were backed to fulfil one item, and popularity chased before delivery costs you the delivery.

i looked at the top 10 and of those 10 we were the only company still in business

Elan Lee · 33:30

you are being backed to focus on fulfilling one item just do that just stop stop trying to like give people more party favors

Elan Lee · 34:00

the way you make those friends is by fulfilling the promise you made to those people and it's very rare that people to that

Elan Lee · 34:00
#focus#crowdfunding#fulfilment#startup-failure#scope-creep

Explainer· 4

Explainer09:00

The anatomy of a game: core gameplay loops, locks and keys, and the diffuse card

Lee lays out the vocabulary he invented for himself, having no formal training in game design. The core gameplay loop is the thing you do over and over again, and he considers it the most important part of any game. Uno, stripped of numbers and colours, is a lock-and-key mechanism where playing a key on top of a lock converts it into the next lock. Finding a compelling loop, he says, is really really hard. The loops he is most attracted to are the ones that are not entertaining in themselves but make the people you are playing with entertaining, because the game is a tool set — he remembers none of the games from childhood but remembers the laughter and the secret alliances. His own flagship illustrates the difference between a description and the actual loop. Exploding Kittens is not Russian roulette with a deck of cards; that first prototype was no fun at all, because it was players against the game and the game carried all the burden of entertaining everyone. The diffuse card changed it: draw the bullet and you may secretly reinsert it anywhere in the deck. Now the question is whether you put it on top, on the bottom, or one down because you knew that I knew — the game fades away and you are playing against the person opposite you.

  • Lee has no training in game design and openly says he made the terminology up as he went along.
  • A core gameplay loop is a mechanism, not a theme, and survives being stripped of its surface presentation entirely.
  • The best loops make the players entertaining rather than being entertaining themselves.
  • The original Exploding Kittens prototype failed because players competed against the game rather than each other.
  • The diffuse card converted a random draw into a psychological duel, which Lee believes is why the game succeeded.

at the essence of any game is what i at least call the the core gameplay loop and that's the thing that you're going to…

Elan Lee · 09:30

those games are tools for me to have fun with my siblings and i remember that fun i remember the the laughter i remember the…

Elan Lee · 11:00

now suddenly the game fades away and i'm playing against you and that's the core gameplay loop of exploding kittens

Elan Lee · 18:30
#core-loop#game-mechanics#product-design#uno#exploding-kittens
Explainer20:00

Alternate reality games and the community-first training that made Kickstarter work

Before explaining the campaign pivot, Lee insists on the necessary background. Trained at Microsoft and Xbox on communities and why people play games together, he left to co-found companies building alternate reality games. The central premise of an ARG is that together you are stronger — as a community you can become extraordinary versions of yourselves. The construction is deliberate: write a complete narrative start to finish with a strong through-line, then break it into pieces and hide those pieces everywhere in the real world, on the internet, on phone lines, on fax lines, through live actors. His mentor Jordan Weisman called the resulting player behaviour internet archaeology — the same act as reconstructing a vase from shards to learn how a society lived, except the shards are scattered across contemporary media and only a coordinated crowd can gather them. Lee says he built a lot of these and was beaten over the head with the same lesson repeatedly: community first, community first, they are so much smarter than you are, learn to entertain a crowd. That decade of conditioning is what he drew on the moment Kickstarter's single money lever ran out, and he describes the realisation as understanding that he had been training for that moment his whole life.

  • The ARG premise is that a community together can do things and become versions of itself no individual could.
  • The construction method is writing a complete narrative and then deliberately fragmenting it across real-world media.
  • Jordan Weisman's term for the player experience is internet archaeology — reassembling a vase to learn how a society lived.
  • Lee's repeated training was community first, community first, they are so much smarter than you are.
  • This background is what let him recognise the Kickstarter plateau as a community-activation problem rather than a marketing one.

the central premise is together you are stronger together as a community you can do stuff you can become extraordinary versions of yourselves

Elan Lee · 20:30

community first community first they're so much smarter than you are learn to entertain a crowd that's what this is all about

Elan Lee · 22:00

my eyes went wide and i realized holy crap i've been tr training for this moment my whole damn life like we need to activate…

Elan Lee · 26:30
#alternate-reality-games#community#narrative-design#jordan-weisman#microsoft
Explainer36:30

Positive constraints: losing money on the box so opening it is a delight

Tim proposes that Exploding Kittens' repeated success comes from applying positive constraints well, and asks what parameters Lee places on his games. Lee splits the answer into the box and the components. The box is a conundrum: Apple spends ten, twenty, fifty dollars on a beautiful glossy box that the customer discards immediately, while Lee's margins allow four or five cents for a box the customer empties and refills after every session and expects to last twenty years. Most games stay within margin, build the cheap box, and accept that it will disintegrate. Exploding Kittens loses money on every box — the packaging specifically, not every game — because it represents a lifelong commitment to the buyer, and budget is allocated explicitly per component. Lee had to learn that card thickness and cardboard weight were even variables, and that there is a catalogue of sand timers differing in sand quality, plastic quality, layer count, colours and whether the sand is dyed. The mantra is that opening the box has to be a delight and everything you touch must feel like someone loved it, because the company is about to ask players to put down their phone, read fifteen minutes of instructions, teach everyone at the table, get it wrong and try again. The dropout rate on that ask is enormous, and delight is what buys another chance.

  • The box economics are inverted versus consumer electronics: cents of budget for an object that must survive twenty years of reuse.
  • Exploding Kittens deliberately loses money on packaging, treating it as a lifelong commitment rather than a cost line.
  • Budget is allocated explicitly per component, which makes a deliberate loss on one item a trade rather than an overrun.
  • Component choice runs far deeper than expected — an entire catalogue of sand timers varying by sand, plastic, layers and dye.
  • Delight is spent against a large ask: phone down, fifteen minutes of rules, teach everyone, fail, retry.

we lose money on every box and that's cool we're okay with that because we know like this is a lifelong commitment we're making to…

Elan Lee · 37:30

our mantra as a company is opening that box has to be a delight like everything you touch in there has to feel beautiful it…

Elan Lee · 38:30

we need to make a beautiful product we need to make something that people fall in love with as much as we are in love…

Elan Lee · 39:30
#packaging#unit-economics#product-quality#constraints#manufacturing
Explainer50:30

Don't read these rules: Lee's guiding principles for game design

Asked what other principles form the DNA of his design process, Lee starts with his childhood frustration: instructions. He had no patience for twenty minutes of rules, let alone the seven hours the heavier games demand, and wanted to make games that ten-year-old him would enjoy. What he is proudest of is that every set of instructions opens with a box telling you not to read them, because reading is the worst way to learn a game — go to the website instead and be walked through it in about four minutes. Every game gets a how-to video, which is expensive, and he insists on it absolutely. You should be able to pick up a game in five minutes without reading. Second, the game must be a tool set that makes the other players entertaining. Third, a game cannot feel fragile — not physically, but structurally: it should never be easy to cheat, and you should never feel motivated to outsmart the game itself. Tim confirms the failure mode from his own shelf of hundreds of games, where he keeps accidentally breaking rules because the design was too delicate. Fourth, a game should be beautiful, a source of joy, a dopamine engine. And the final signal is the sharing instinct: after wanting to play again, your next impulse should be to put it in your bag and take it to a friend's house, at which point the thing starts to have a life.

  • Every Exploding Kittens instruction sheet opens by telling players not to read it and to watch a four-minute video instead.
  • The how-to video is expensive and Lee insists on one for every single game.
  • A game must never feel fragile — it should be hard to cheat and never invite players to outsmart the system.
  • Tim confirms the failure mode: hundreds of games on his shelf whose rules he keeps accidentally breaking.
  • The strongest success signal after wanting to replay is wanting to carry the game to someone else's house.

hey don't read these rules reading is the worst way to learn how to play a game instead go to our website and we'll teach…

Elan Lee · 51:30

a game cannot feel fragile i don't mean the physical components i mean it can't be too easy to cheat

Elan Lee · 52:00

a game should be beautiful you should look at a game and smile it should be a source of joy these things should be dopamine…

Elan Lee · 53:00
#design-principles#onboarding#instructions#product-philosophy#sharing

Story· 5

Story02:30

Poetry for Neanderthals: a year of cutting a pitch down to one word

Lee walks the full case study of Poetry for Neanderthals from inception. Jacob and Francesca approached him at OR Camp in Chicago, an invite-only conference of about a hundred people where Lee — a self-described crazy introvert with nowhere to hide — decided to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Their premise was simulating being bad at a foreign language by restricting every word in a sentence to one syllable. Lee's verdict was blunt: it was not a good game, but it was a genuinely interesting core gameplay loop, because communication becomes hard and you need your friends' help to get from caveman talk back to English. The next year was pure subtraction, tested through the Kitty Test Pilots, a group of families that took roughly seven years to build and receives deliberately half-baked prototypes. Feedback came back brutal — cumbersome, too hard, eight-minute turns, not enough time. The team cut sentences to five or six words, then three, then two, and each time it was still too much, until they asked why they were complicating it at all and reduced the game to a single word per card. Words like teeth were then chosen deliberately because describing them forces funny stumbles, and Matt Inman added the inflatable club as a punishment and named the game on sight.

  • Lee rejected the pitch as a game but accepted it as a core gameplay loop, and that distinction justified a year of development.
  • The Kitty Test Pilots are families who volunteered to hear about new games and instead receive very half-baked prototypes to critique.
  • Reduction proceeded in aggressive halves on both the workload and the timer, ending at one word and roughly forty-five seconds.
  • The breakthrough was a question about their own assumptions rather than an experiment: why are we complicating this?
  • Components were then chosen for the behaviour they provoke, with teeth explicitly calculated to produce stumbling and laughter.

we took the sentences down to like five or six words still too much we took them down to three words still too much took…

Elan Lee · 04:30

once we realized that we were bringing baggage through for no reason the game got really simple really fun

Elan Lee · 05:00

we regularly send them out very very half-baked ideas and we ask them just to send us feedback

Elan Lee · 13:00
#game-design#iteration#playtesting#simplification#product-development
Story18:30

A ten thousand dollar goal and an almost nine million dollar check

Tim opens the Kickstarter section by referencing a framed fraud alert. Lee explains that the campaign's target was ten thousand dollars in thirty days, and the bank had generously raised their deposit alert ceiling to fifty thousand dollars. The check they tried to deposit at the end of those thirty days was almost nine million. Tim presses on the loaded deck — Lee's Microsoft and Xbox background, and Matt Inman's decade of building The Oatmeal — and Lee accepts it. Inman had spent about ten years writing one-to-four-panel comedy comics, some Eisner-winning, and had earned an audience's trust as a genuinely high-quality artist. Lee met him through a mutual friend, pitched the game, and launched the campaign roughly three weeks later — fast, Lee says, because they had nothing to lose and did not think it would be a huge success. Inman's task was not designing the game but writing fifty-six one-panel jokes for fifty-six cards. When Inman posted that he had made a game for the first time, millions of views hit the page. The campaign funded in about seven minutes, made a million dollars on day one, two on day two, three on day three — and then, after the first week, fell off a cliff, because everyone Inman could reach had already decided.

  • The initial target was ten thousand dollars in thirty days and the final deposit was almost nine million.
  • Lee credits two prerequisites explicitly: his alternate reality game background and Matt Inman's decade-old audience at The Oatmeal.
  • The campaign launched about three weeks after Lee first met Inman, precisely because they felt they had nothing to lose.
  • Inman's contribution was fifty-six one-panel jokes, not game design — art applied to already-refined mechanics.
  • The collapse after week one was audience exhaustion, not product fatigue: the tank was simply empty.

the check that we tried to deposit at the end of those 30 days was almost $9 million

Elan Lee · 19:30

we built it fast cuz we had nothing to lose we we didn't think it would be a huge success we just thought this feels…

Elan Lee · 23:30

after the first week it fell off a cliff and the reason is is just because everyone who matt could reach who was interested in…

Elan Lee · 25:00
#kickstarter#crowdfunding#launch#the-oatmeal#audience
Story1:06:30

Jordan Weisman, Spielberg walking into the office, and the birth of The Beast

Lee met Jordan Weisman at Microsoft after failing out of several colleges and talking his way into an internship at Industrial Light and Magic, where his actual job on Star Wars was the connective tissue on Jar Jar Binks' neck so it would not tear as the actor moved. Microsoft ignored his transcripts and hired him on the strength of Star Wars alone, as a producer on the Xbox group. Within two weeks Weisman pulled him aside, told him he was a terrible producer, and said he might be a really good designer instead — then threw him onto projects like Halo. Weisman's commandments were drilled in: nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd, and you have a violin, I have a barn, let's put on a show — do not overthink it, go tomorrow, you will learn a lot and you will fail and both are fine. Lee admits that if he had run their alternate reality company they would have been paralysed; Weisman instead cold-called Steven Spielberg claiming they could market his game better than anyone, and Spielberg later walked into Lee's office to explain what AI was about. When the film's ending proved so bleak that all four Xbox games had to be cancelled after a year of work, Lee sat heartbroken with Weisman in a Seattle sushi restaurant, arguing that Sean Stewart's narrative glue deserved release. Weisman's phone rang, and he asked: what if that was the story calling us right now.

  • Lee failed out of several colleges and was hired at Microsoft purely on the strength of an Industrial Light and Magic internship.
  • Weisman told him within two weeks that he was a terrible producer but might be a good designer, and switched his role.
  • Weisman's two drilled-in commandments were nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd, and you've got a violin, I've got a barn.
  • The Spielberg relationship began with a cold call from a company that had no product and no idea what it was doing.
  • All four AI video games were cancelled after a year, and the leftover narrative glue became The Beast, the first alternate reality game.

nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd and yeah try as hard as you want to market something get a crowd that's what actually matters

Elan Lee · 1:15:30

you've got a violin i've got a barn let's put on a show right like don't overthink this just go just like tomorrow put on…

Elan Lee · 1:16:00

his phone rang and he looked at me and he said what if that was the story calling us right now

Elan Lee · 1:22:00
#mentorship#jordan-weisman#microsoft#alternate-reality-games#career
Story1:23:30

The Pixar model for kids' games: I can't let her win, and she has to win anyway

Asked what game he would make under a pen name, Lee shares something he says he is not allowed to share. He has a five-year-old and a one-year-old, and he hates playing games with his daughter — not because of her but because commercial kids' games are awful, and he dreads another round of Candyland while she has a blast because she is getting attention. His diagnosis is that the model is wrong, and the fix is the Pixar model: an experience the child loves and a different experience the parent loves, delivered through the same tool set. So for two years, every night, he and his daughter got out paper, stickers and markers and made games. They built twenty or thirty; a few are genuinely good, and she helped design them. The design constraint he set himself is severe and doubled: because she is still at the age where everything is about her and she has no awareness of whether he is enjoying himself, the game must celebrate her and let her win — but he cannot let her win, he must be trying his hardest, and she has to beat him anyway. Games that failed that test got scrapped. The keepers are the ones where they both have a blast and he genuinely wants to say yes when she asks to play again. Those games are heading to retail that year.

  • Lee's premise is that the kids' game category is structurally broken because it entertains only the child.
  • His model is Pixar: one tool set producing two distinct experiences the child and the parent each love.
  • Two years of nightly prototyping with paper, stickers and markers produced twenty or thirty games.
  • The design constraint is that he must genuinely try to win and she must beat him anyway — no letting her win.
  • The keepers passed the same replay test as his commercial games, with a handful reaching retail that year.

what if the kids could have an experience that they love and the parents could have a different experience through the same tool set that…

Elan Lee · 1:25:00

i cannot let her win i have to be trying my hardest and she has to beat me anyway

Elan Lee · 1:26:30

we eventually ended up with a hand full of games that all satisfy that criteria that i don't let her win and she wins anyway

Elan Lee · 1:26:30
#kids-games#parenting#design-constraints#pixar-model#prototyping
Story1:43:00

Peter Chernin, forty million dollars, and the worst presentation Jesse had ever seen

For years Exploding Kittens owned one hundred percent of itself and had nobody to answer to. Milestones were strange: instead of begging for distribution, people knocked on their door begging to sell, distribute and market the game, so every milestone was permission granted rather than a deal won. Investors kept arriving and Lee could say that money was the one thing they did not need. Then Peter Chernin came to the office. Told no thanks, he made his pitch anyway: they had grown as far as a game company should, and the next step was to stop being a game company and start being an intellectual property company — TV shows, movies, theme parks — and he happened to be the best in the world at those. Lee and Inman took the investment, spent about twelve hours regretting it, and then Chernin asked who they would most want to make a TV show with. They said Mike Judge and Greg Daniels, knowing it was absurd. The next afternoon both men were sitting on Chernin's couch. Lee raised forty million dollars, which he says is still sitting in the bank because they did not need it but it mattered as a signifier, and learned that taking investment turns exit from an if into a when. Their first board deck was, in partner Jesse Jacobs' words, the worst presentation he had ever seen — and the Chernin Group then trained them, forced them to define what failure meant, and made them hire their first accountant and CFO after five years of Lee running the books in Google Sheets.

  • For years the company was entirely founder-owned and its milestones were permissions granted to others rather than deals won.
  • Chernin's pitch was to stop being a game company and become an intellectual property company.
  • The forty million raised still sits in the bank; Lee took it as a signifier and for the capability, not the cash.
  • Taking investment converts exiting the company from an if into a when, which took Lee time to absorb.
  • The Chernin Group's value was discipline — defining failure, board hygiene, and the first accountant after five years of Google Sheets.

we had this incredible luxury to say you know money is the one thing we just don't need

Elan Lee · 1:43:30

the next step is to stop being a game company and start being an intellectual property company and what that means is tv shows and…

Elan Lee · 1:44:30

we're interested in help we're not interested in having bosses

Elan Lee · 1:53:00
#fundraising#investors#board-governance#intellectual-property#scaling

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway30:30

Look what you did: the one-word rewrite that converted backers into evangelists

Tim asks how the team tracked thousands of community challenge submissions. Lee's answer is that they tracked it very very poorly — the team was arguably two or three people with friends drifting in and out — and that the Gmail account attached to the campaign page was shut down after hitting the ten-thousand-emails-per-second limit. For unlocking rewards they simply assumed there were some Batmen in a tub in there, because they had been planning to deliver anyway. But Lee draws a hard line between unlocking and converting. Asked how you turn casual fans into superfans and superfans into proselytisers, he says you cannot make those assumptions — you actually do need to read the emails, because the conversion process is shining a light on the people who sent them. The mechanism is editorial and precise. The first draft of the community update opened with look what happened, and Lee immediately recognised it as the wrong message: that phrasing reports facts and credits the campaign. The correct framing is look what you did, with the community's own photographs embedded right there. Nothing to do with us. That is when people converted, concluding that they were more powerful together and should keep working together — which is the ARG lesson deployed commercially.

  • Tracking was deliberately low-resolution because the rewards were things the team intended to deliver anyway.
  • The campaign's Gmail account was shut down for exceeding ten thousand emails per second.
  • Assumption is acceptable for unlocking a reward and useless for converting a fan.
  • The decisive edit was replacing look what happened with look what you did, plus the community's own photos as proof.
  • Conversion works by making the community's belief in its own collective power true and visible.

you actually do need to read through those emails because the conversion process is shining a light on them

Elan Lee · 31:30

the first draft of that of that update said look what happened and we realized whoa that's the wrong message it has to say look…

Elan Lee · 31:30

it turns out that number is 10,000 per second oh wow and we hit that trap

Elan Lee · 31:00
#superfans#community#copywriting#conversion#updates
Takeaway1:58:00

Partners who love their audiences, and the seduction of the algorithm

Lee closes by saying he has become enamoured with partnerships — all the best things the company now makes are collaborations with someone smarter than him, including a game with Penn Jillette. He frames the company's distinctive offer as the ability to let someone who has built a following truthfully say they made a game, which is genuinely hard to do alone, and notes that using this as a calling card suits a man who gets very shy in social situations. His filter for ideal partners is one line: people who love their audiences. If the audience is a tool for gaining money or a means to an end, he is not interested at all; the signal he wants is someone who would still entertain those people with no stage and no audience. Tim sharpens it into a counterfactual — if your audience delivered zero financial value today, would you still engage — and estimates the honest answer for a very high percentage is no. That opens the episode's closing argument. Tim warns that without explicit awareness, the algorithm rewards ever more extreme caricatures of yourself until you become a mask, and that having your organic reach throttled on a platform you do not own is risky financially and psycho-emotionally. Lee agrees: it is why he has dropped off most social media, because it is too easy to let the wrong people shape who you are and what you make.

  • Lee's partnership offer is a capability — letting a creator truthfully say they made a game — not a cheque or exposure.
  • The single partner filter is whether they love their audience unconditionally.
  • Tim's counterfactual test is whether they would still engage at zero financial value, and he thinks most would not.
  • Both agree conditional love is understandable when someone is paying rent and school fees; this is a fit test, not a moral judgment.
  • The algorithm rewards increasingly extreme versions of yourself until the persona becomes a mask you cannot step out of.

it's really simple it's people who love their audiences

Elan Lee · 2:00:00

if your audience is a tool for you to gain money if your audience is like a means to an ends not interested at all

Elan Lee · 2:00:00

if you are not explicitly aware of and take steps to counter the seduction of the algorithm you will be rewarded

Tim Ferriss · 2:02:00
#partnerships#creator-economy#social-media#algorithms#audience

tactic· 2

tactic25:30

Crowd-doing, not crowdfunding: stretch goals unlocked by absurd deeds

With the campaign flatlined and twenty days left, Lee and Inman faced a choice: take a bow at roughly four million against a ten thousand dollar target, or push and see what else the platform could do. Lee's read of the Kickstarter ecosystem was that it offered exactly one lever — give us more money and we will give you more stuff. Stretch goals at twenty, fifty and a hundred thousand dollars unlocking bonus cards, carrying cases and gold-plated cards were the entire toolkit. His pivot was to keep the stretch-goal structure and change the currency from dollars to deeds. They announced they were done with money and were throwing a party everybody was invited to. Show us a picture of a real taco cat — the game has a half-cat, half-taco character — and if ten people do it, ten extra cards go in the box. Give us a picture of ten Batmen in a hot tub, whatever that means, and everyone gets a fancy carrying case. Backers took the photos, wrote poems, filmed videos, went out on the streets, met each other, threw parties and ordered pizza. No challenge asked for money, but the campaign page was mission control and the back this project button sat right beside every challenge, so the dollars kept rolling in regardless.

  • Kickstarter's default and only lever was money-for-stuff, which exhausts as soon as the reachable audience does.
  • Lee kept the stretch-goal mechanism and swapped the trigger from a dollar threshold to a completed deed.
  • Explicitly announcing that money no longer mattered is what made the invitation credible rather than a gimmick.
  • Challenges were deliberately absurd and visual, which made completing them intrinsically rewarding.
  • Revenue continued because the campaign page functioned as mission control with a purchase button attached.

we did stretch goals just like everybody else but instead of tying it to money we tied it to just insane

Elan Lee · 27:00

we basically said look we're going to throw a party and everybody's invited instead of giving us more money we're done with money

Elan Lee · 27:00

we basically said money doesn't matter anymore let's just have fun and it was a great invitation

Elan Lee · 28:00
#kickstarter#stretch-goals#community-activation#campaign-design#engagement
tactic44:00

One week, blank cards and Sharpies: how Lee would design a game from scratch

Tim sets a hypothetical: locked in a room for a week, playtesters allowed only in the second half. Lee says you do not need much more than pen and paper — his bag contains blank white poker cards, which he orders by the pallet, and Sharpies. Blank cards are everything: need dice, take six cards, number them, shuffle and draw. He would spend the first hour generating a dozen core gameplay loops, which he says is honestly not the hard part. His improvised example is two players each holding a card where the higher card wins, but preceded by a conversation in which each tries to bluff the other into folding for a partial payout — and he immediately points out the crux, that the conversation is the game and the cards do not matter. Then he needs one other person, and asks exactly one question: when you finished playing, did you want to play again. The company no longer gives out surveys at all. A game is done when one hundred percent of people say yes, and it never starts that way — it always starts as a pile of noes with explanations. When someone does want to replay, he interrogates why: fun, or a sense of mastery they think they can reach. He then doubles down on whatever pulled them back and builds every surrounding component to emphasise it, only handing it to formal playtesters once the cylinders are firing.

  • Lee's entire design kit is blank white poker cards ordered by the pallet plus Sharpies; six cards substitute for dice.
  • He can generate twelve core gameplay loops in an hour and considers generation the easy part.
  • The company has abandoned surveys entirely in favour of one question: did you want to play again?
  • The done bar is one hundred percent yes, and every project starts as a pile of noes with reasons attached.
  • Any yes must be interrogated for its cause, and that cause becomes the thing every component amplifies.

we do all these play tests we don't even give out surveys anymore there's only one question we ask which is when you finished playing…

Elan Lee · 46:30

a game is done when 100% of the people say yes and it never starts that way it's always a whole bunch of nose

Elan Lee · 47:00

you notice the crux of that was we're entertaining each other the conversation is actually the game the cards don't matter

Elan Lee · 46:30
#prototyping#playtesting#ideation#product-validation#constraints

topic· 1

topic40:30

Box size, shippers, and how the sales channels actually break down

Lee explains the size paradox. Travel matters enormously — people want to take games to parties and family reunions — and smaller boxes fit more units into a shipper, onto a pallet and into a container, which drives real cost. But on a retail shelf a box is a billboard and the biggest billboard wins, so small is not automatically advantageous. Their resolution is to negotiate directly with Target and Walmart for large cardboard shippers that sit on the shelf with the small game inside, capturing shelf presence and portability at once. On channel mix, the first three or four games were one hundred percent direct to consumer, which is essentially what Kickstarter was. Then came Amazon, which very quickly eclipsed their ability to sell their own game. Lee attributes this partly to friction: when a Kickstarter campaign closes, the back this project button becomes a link to a website, adding navigation steps that killed conversion, whereas Amazon simply presents a buy button. Retailers then went through a structural shift, expanding game sections beyond Connect Four and Monopoly, and reached out asking what it would take to get Exploding Kittens on the shelf — effectively making them an anchor tenant who helped build those departments. Retail is now about sixty percent of the business, with the remaining forty percent split between online, hobby, international and direct to consumer.

  • Smaller boxes win on travel and shipping density but lose the shelf war, where the biggest billboard wins.
  • Retail shippers let a small box occupy a large footprint, a deal Lee says is rare in the industry.
  • The first three or four games were entirely direct to consumer, essentially through Kickstarter.
  • Amazon eclipsed their own sales channel partly because a closed Kickstarter page adds navigation steps before purchase.
  • Retail is now roughly sixty percent of the business, with online, hobby, international and direct to consumer making up the rest.

if you think of a box as a billboard the biggest billboard is going to win so having a smaller box is not necessarily advantageous…

Elan Lee · 40:30

retail accounts for about 60% of our business now

Elan Lee · 43:00

when a kickstarter campaign closes the back this project button changes to a link to a website so now there's an extra barrier to entry

Elan Lee · 1:29:00
#retail#distribution#amazon#logistics#channel-strategy