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06 August 2025

#821: My Two-Year Secret Project, COYOTE — The Strategies and Tactics for Building a Bestseller from Nothing with Elan Lee of Exploding Kittens

11Frameworks
15Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Innovation6 steps

Games Should Make the Players Entertaining

Stop building a product that performs for people and start building one that makes people perform for each other.

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Communication6 steps

Radical Designer Ownership

If the user is confused, it is your fault — so simplify until the thing is self-correcting and write the instructions as if you were in the room.

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Entrepreneurship7 steps

The Crowdfund-Then-License Path

Three ways to sell a game, and the only one worth taking is a hybrid: prove it on crowdfunding, ship it, then license it.

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Innovation6 steps

The I-Can-Do-That Mastery Ladder

Engineer four thoughts in sequence — I can do that, I did that, I know what's next, I can do that too — and repeat until mastery.

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Strategy7 steps

The Kitty Test Pilots Protocol

Replace focus groups of strangers with filmed sessions in real living rooms, five copies at a time, judged on one question.

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Sales8 steps

The Line Review Playbook

Do not pitch the buyer — make them play, pull it away at the peak, and engineer everything around being their tenth meeting.

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Marketing7 steps

The Shelf-Stopping Box Formula

Design the first, second and third thing the eye lands on — and aim for pick-it-up, not buy-it.

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Marketing5 steps

The Two-Sentence Social Video Test

Every piece of short-form marketing must produce exactly two thoughts: I see what they're experiencing, and I want that.

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Innovation6 steps

The Zero Effect Brainstorm

Stop hunting for the one right idea and start hunting for anything at all — then your hit rate is one hundred percent.

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Finance7 steps

Topline Royalty Math

A 2% royalty on revenue is really 20% of profit — and the things you would have to get good at to keep the rest are things you should never learn.

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Strategy5 steps

Win Conditions Before Brainstorming

Write the short list of things the finished thing must do, or you will stay in brainstorming mode forever.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Explainer· 5

Explainer08:30

How retail actually works: category buyers, line reviews, and why everyone is in sales

Before any of the design story, Elan lays out the machinery Tim says he has never heard explained anywhere. Retailers have a buyer per category, and if you want anything in Target, Walmart, Amazon or Barnes and Noble you must convince that buyer your product deserves their limited and very precious shelf space. Twice a year the buyers hold line reviews to purchase next year's stock, and because there are usually only one, two or maybe three of them, they can physically take only about a dozen to two dozen meetings. Those meetings go to Hasbro, Mattel and the other big studios, and in each one twenty, thirty or fifty games get pitched. Elan flags the trap immediately: doing a great job in the meeting matters, but getting the meeting at all is the prior and harder problem. Tim then reframes the whole subject for listeners who think sales is not their department, drawing on the high-tech entrepreneurship class he guest-lectured for ten years. He would ask who wanted to be in sales, get no hands, and deliver the bad news that everybody is — whether you are selling ideas, a position, a perspective, or calling it deal-making. You do not get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate, and what you can present persuasively. The good news is that it is a coachable, learnable skill, and while extraversion and charisma help, you can become excellent starting from zero raw materials.

  • Retailers assign a buyer per category, and shelf space is limited and precious, so every product is competing against every other product in that category.
  • Line reviews happen twice a year and a buying team can physically hold only about a dozen to two dozen meetings in that window.
  • In each meeting twenty to fifty games are pitched, so the pitch is a competition inside a competition.
  • Getting into the room at all is the harder problem than performing once you are there.
  • Tim's position is that everyone is in sales whether they admit it or not, and that persuasion is a coachable, learnable skill.

they have limited shelf space. it's very precious real estate. so you have to convince them that your thing is better than anybody else's thing

Elan Lee · 08:30

bad news is you're all in sales

Tim Ferriss · 10:30

you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate

Tim Ferriss · 10:30
#retail#line-review#sales#distribution#buyers
Explainer39:30

The zero effect: why hunting for anything beats hunting for the thing

Asked what signals tell him an idea is worth developing out of the four hundred in his notebook, Elan gives two answers. The obvious one is the reflex to play again. The deeper one is a principle he loves called the zero effect, taken from a film of that name from around the late eighties or early nineties. In one scene the logic is laid out: you have lost your car keys and you are standing in your living room looking for them, and your chances of finding them are very low, because there are so many things in that room that are not your car keys. If instead you are trying to find anything at all, your chances of success are suddenly one hundred percent — you will find something, as long as you do not care what it is. You can tweak it later, play with it later, and find some way to consider the thing you found your car keys. Elan calls this his favourite premise for brainstorming and for early testing, and is emphatic that the failure mode is locking your head into I must find X, because the chances of finding that specific thing are almost non-existent. Tim asks whether it takes the form of what-if proposals, and Elan confirms: what if this, what if that, and you are not scared for all of them to fail because you can generate them all day long. The operational rule is that every proposal is met with let's try it, and as long as the answer is always let's try it, you will one hundred percent find what you are looking for. Tim adds the low-stakes corollary he applies to his own creative work, including recording this very episode with permission to scrap it.

  • The zero effect comes from a film and states that searching for anything succeeds one hundred percent of the time while searching for a specific thing almost never does.
  • You are permitted to retroactively decide that whatever you found counts as what you were looking for.
  • The operational form is unlimited what-if proposals, each answered with let's try it rather than an opinion.
  • Not being scared of the failures is what makes brainstorming a pleasure rather than a hunt.
  • Tim's parallel practice is lowering the stakes until you can start — two crappy pages per day, or an episode you are allowed to scrap.

if instead you are trying to find anything, your chances of success are suddenly at 100%

Elan Lee · 41:00

as long as you're willing to make that leap, brainstorming becomes a pleasure

Elan Lee · 41:30

and as long as the answer is always let's try it, you will 100% find what you're looking for

Elan Lee · 42:00
#brainstorming#creativity#zero-effect#ideation#iteration
Explainer44:30

Don't Shoot the Dog: radical ownership and writing instructions as if you were in the room

Asked for resources, Elan names two books. The first is Raph Koster's A Theory of Fun, the first game design book he read and the one he returns to most often. The second he calls controversial: Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog, which is not about game design at all. Its premise is that when training a companion animal goes wrong, you do not blame the dog — you change how you operate and convey information in order to relate to how the dog sees the world. Elan calls it the best game design principle he has ever encountered, because you are designing for someone who is not you and you will not be in the room when they encounter it. Every problem that comes up is your problem; every responsibility is yours. Before Exploding Kittens he designed games for friends and found people did not enjoy them when he was absent, and he kept blaming them, which the book showed him was completely wrong. His fix is a one-two punch. First, design: the game must be so simple it is almost self-correcting, with all complication and nuance stripped, and the word 'except' in a rule is a signal he has gone down a wrong path. Second, writing: in the room he would explain enthusiastically, answer questions and clarify confusion, so on paper he must write as if he were there, anticipating questions, cutting them off before they arise and correcting behaviour where he knows people go off course. He puts the result at a move from ten percent of people getting a game to ninety-five percent. Tim adds that reading is the worst way to learn a game, so Coyote points to a video via QR code, and that the rules Google doc took hundreds of edits hunting anything undefined or ambiguous.

  • A Theory of Fun by Raph Koster is Elan's foundational game design text and the one he rereads most.
  • Don't Shoot the Dog reassigns every failure from the user to the designer, which Elan calls the best game design principle he has encountered.
  • The design half of the fix is simplicity so complete that the game is almost self-correcting.
  • The word 'except' appearing in a rule is Elan's tell that the underlying design is wrong.
  • The writing half is anticipating and pre-empting questions, which took his comprehension rate from roughly ten percent to ninety-five percent.

every problem that comes up is my problem, not theirs

Elan Lee · 46:00

the game has to be so simple that it is almost self-correcting

Elan Lee · 48:00

i have to write it as if i'm in the room and i have to anticipate those questions and i have to cut them off…

Elan Lee · 49:00
#instructions#karen-pryor#raph-koster#beginners-mind#ownership
Explainer57:30

Trojan-horsing cognitive training, and the four thoughts that make difficulty work

Tim describes a second, quieter agenda for Coyote. A former neuroscience major who has funded a lot of science, he has concluded through many experiments that Americans say they want to be smarter but will typically not pay for something designed to make them smarter unless it is a magic pill. So he wanted to Trojan-horse cognitive training inside a genuinely fun game, pointing to the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test — a neuropsychological instrument for cognitive flexibility and executive function in which participants sort cards by an unknown rule that changes after a run of correct sorts. He is careful that this is unproven and there is no randomised controlled trial, but reports that Coyote starts trivially easy, gets tricky once a modifier or two appear, and leaves players feeling like they have done a full brain workout. Elan compares it to learning drum patterns: you are convinced you cannot coordinate the limbs, you work at it, it clicks, and you can feel new neurons coming to life. In an early playtest his eyes went wide because five minutes earlier he could not hold a pattern and now he could. They also note that everyone has a specific super strength and super weakness — for Tim, skipping players is an Achilles heel; for others, a three-bump rhythm instead of two melts their brain. That leads into the difficulty question. Tim invokes Bushnell's law of Atari fame, easy to learn and difficult to master, and asks how you find the sweet spot on the graph, noting that making Coyote too easy or basically impossible would both be trivial. Elan's answer is a four-thought sequence: I can do that, then the game confirming yes you can, then I understand the path to mastery, then and I can do that too — then breaking it and repeating.

  • Tim's finding is that people say they want to be smarter but will not pay for products designed to make them smarter unless they are pills.
  • The Wisconsin Card Sorting Test is the loose analogue — sorting by a hidden rule that keeps changing — Trojan-horsed inside a fun game.
  • Players report a felt brain workout, and Elan compares the sensation to learning a drum pattern and feeling new neurons come online.
  • Each player has a specific cognitive super strength and super weakness that the game surfaces, such as skipped turns or three-beat rhythms.
  • Elan's difficulty method is a repeating four-thought loop rather than a tuned average, hit over and over until mastery.

when you first encounter any game, the first thought that has to go into your brain is i can do that

Elan Lee · 1:04:30

the next thought that has to go into your brain is, i understand the path to mastery

Elan Lee · 1:04:30

it's like you can feel new like neurons coming to life, right? like your brain is doing something that 5 minutes ago you could not…

Elan Lee · 1:00:30
#cognitive-training#difficulty-curve#mastery#bushnells-law#neuroscience
Explainer2:03:30

Three paths to market, why 2% is really 20%, and the hug of death

For someone with a promising prototype and no industry experience, Elan lays out three paths and rejects each individually. Self-publishing means you make every mistake, pay for every mistake, and cannot undo any of them — just do not do it. Going to a publisher like Hasbro, Mattel or Exploding Kittens works and can make you rich, but you need bona fides you do not yet have. Crowdfunding is powerful because it is a discovery platform that did not exist fifteen years ago, but it is not the whole answer either. His actual favourite is a combination of the second and third: start on crowdfunding, expect the first project to fail, fix and relaunch as often as needed, then — critically — ship the game before you approach anyone, because if the only thing you can prove is that you are a train wreck waiting to happen you will get nothing. Even a hundred-copy fulfilment counts, and you should beg every one of those hundred buyers for a video. Tim adds the deeper value: if you cannot sell anything on a crowdfunding platform you will never sell a mass retail buyer, which saves you years of banging your head against a wall. Elan agrees — if it is going to fail, fail fast, and do not take it personally; they work on around a hundred games a year and fewer than twenty make the cut. On deal terms, the headline royalty is around two percent and feels insulting, but it is two percent of revenue, not profit, which lands closer to twenty or thirty percent once you make the publisher show you the spreadsheet. Rates run up to about twelve percent for rock stars. The barcode saga — five different formats demanded by Target, Walmart, pallets, countries and bundles — is his argument for why you should never get good at the operational half. Tim closes on the hug of death and on thinking of your life as a collection of games you can choose.

  • The three routes are self-publishing, licensing to a publisher, and crowdfunding; Elan's recommendation is crowdfunding followed by licensing.
  • You must ship and fulfil before approaching publishers, because reliability is what they are actually underwriting.
  • A failed crowdfunding campaign is valuable information — it predicts you would never sell a mass retail buyer.
  • A two percent royalty on topline revenue works out closer to twenty or thirty percent of profit, the opposite of Hollywood accounting.
  • The barcode escalation and Amazon's returns policy illustrate why the operational work is something to buy rather than learn.

just don't self-publish. it's a terrible idea

Elan Lee · 2:04:30

that 2% isn't 2% of the profit. it's 2% of the revenue

Elan Lee · 2:16:30

you should not get good at this. why would you want to get good at that?

Elan Lee · 2:33:30

i would love everybody to think about your life as a collection of games

Tim Ferriss · 2:50:30
#crowdfunding#licensing#royalties#deal-terms#kickstarter

Story· 3

Story00:30

The secret agenda: two years, one card game, and the 2-minutes-to-learn rule

Tim opens by admitting the premise of the episode — he brought Elan Lee onto the podcast two years earlier with a secret agenda, and the result is Coyote, a 66-card game he describes as rock paper scissors on steroids, playable cooperatively or competitively with sabotage mechanics that tie back to the trickster mythology in the name. Elan introduces himself reluctantly as co-creator and CEO of Exploding Kittens, which he believes is the number one independent game studio in the world, with around sixty million games sold over ten years, following a stint as chief design officer at Xbox. Tim traces his own path: raised on Dungeons and Dragons as a refuge from bullying and boredom, still owning all his original modules and dice, but realising as an adult that an RPG was too heavy a lift for friends who only have an hour after dinner. Discovering Poetry for Neanderthals tilted his ambitions toward casual party games. Elan explains that this is precisely why he founded Exploding Kittens — he is turned off by two, four and six hour games and cannot focus that long. His golden rule is two minutes to learn, fifteen minutes to play, because with only five minutes committed nothing is at stake, and the games he loves are the ones you then play for two hours in five-minute sessions.

  • Coyote is a 66-card game with roughly twenty gestures, playable cooperatively against the game or competitively with sabotage.
  • Elan co-founded and runs Exploding Kittens, which has sold around sixty million games in ten years after his time as chief design officer at Xbox.
  • Tim's game ambition dates to childhood Dungeons and Dragons but had to be redirected because adults will not commit a full evening to an RPG.
  • Elan's golden rule for casual design is two minutes to learn and fifteen minutes to play, so the player risks almost nothing on the try.
  • Tim's stated purpose for the episode is to give listeners a full peek under the hood at the creative, development, distribution and retail process.

tim ferrris made a game. i did. that's amazing. it took me 47 years

Elan Lee · 02:30

this golden rule of like 2 minutes to learn, 15 minutes to play

Elan Lee · 06:30

if it takes longer than 5 minutes to explain a game, i am gone

Elan Lee · 06:00
#game-design#exploding-kittens#casual-games#coyote#origin-story
Story29:30

Toronto, rain, Hanabi and the rock paper scissors breakthrough

After eight or nine meetings around the country with suitcases of prototypes and no game, the pair scheduled a trip to Toronto with game mechanic specialist Ken Gruhl as a make-or-break sprint. It rained, they failed twice to find seats in coffee shops, and they ended up in a strange multi-purpose building killing time with Hanabi — hana meaning flower, bi meaning fire, so fireworks. Tim found it elegant and, crucially, cooperative, which lodged the idea that a game need not be winner-takes-all or team versus team. Walking by the water afterwards, Tim admits he was stalled, the hair plugging the drain, because he kept searching his mind for tabletop games since tabletop was the canvas they were painting on. Then Elan or Ken asked a deliberately broader question: what games have you really enjoyed, of any kind at all. Tim said rock paper scissors. Elan notes that invoking rock paper scissors is normally the end of a game design conversation, because there are three tools, you deploy one, you determine a winner and you are done. What rescued it was Tim's qualifier — it is only fun played repeatedly with friends over an extended period, because you start picking up tells and patterns. That is the transition Elan seized on: from round two you are not playing the game anymore, you are playing each other. He went home and started scribbling on the blank cards he buys by the thousand.

  • The Toronto trip was framed as a final attempt after eight or nine unproductive meetings, with an outside game mechanics specialist brought in.
  • Playing Hanabi while sheltering from rain planted the cooperative-mode idea that became half of Coyote.
  • Tim was stalled because he had unconsciously restricted his search to tabletop games; the unlock was a question about games of any kind.
  • Rock paper scissors normally ends a design conversation because a single round contains nothing.
  • The insight that saved it is that repeated play converts the game into people reading each other, starting at round two.

it's important to note the moment you bring up rock paper scissors in any game design discussion that's usually the end of the conversation

Elan Lee · 33:00

we're not playing the game anymore. we're playing each other

Elan Lee · 33:30

it cannot start in round one. it starts in round two and it moves forward from there

Elan Lee · 34:00
#breakthrough#brainstorming#hanabi#cooperative-games#rock-paper-scissors
Story1:09:30

A four-year-old's game outsells Exploding Kittens — and the three rules behind it

Tim asks for the 80/20 on Exploding Kittens' bestsellers and gets a genuinely surprising leaderboard. Until the previous year, Exploding Kittens was the top selling game in the world across all games. It is now number two, and Elan says he is even prouder of that, because number one is Hurry Up Chicken Butt — a game he designed with his four-year-old daughter, who did most of the design, and which sells roughly one copy every four seconds. Poetry for Neanderthals is usually number three and Throw Throw Burrito around five or six. The origin was that when his daughter turned four they bought all the available children's games and he hated them, so they made better ones. Before brainstorming, Elan wrote three criteria he needed satisfied for him, as a parent, to buy the game: it has to be as much fun for me to play as for my daughter; she has to be able to beat me even though I am not letting her win; and the game cannot have any losers, though it can have a winner. He says the second one killed most of their designs, and that his reason for writing the list at all is that unless he knows what success looks like, he will stay in brainstorming mode forever. His daughter simply kept firing off alternatives. Once a design hit all three, he says, they were only halfway: naming took a thousand candidates narrowed to ten, read aloud to his daughter and her friends, who laughed so hard at Hurry Up Chicken Butt they did not want to hear the rest. Box design was harder — an iPhone box can cost a hundred dollars and be thrown away, while a game box has about forty cents and must last forever.

  • Hurry Up Chicken Butt, designed largely by Elan's four-year-old daughter, is now the world's number one selling game at roughly one copy every four seconds.
  • Elan wrote three purchase criteria before brainstorming, framed from the buying parent's perspective rather than the designer's.
  • The requirement that his daughter beat him without being let win eliminated most candidate designs.
  • Without a written definition of success, Elan says he would stay in brainstorming mode forever.
  • A game box has roughly forty cents of budget and must survive indefinitely, the inverse of consumer electronics packaging economics.

my daughter has to be able to beat me at this game even though i'm not letting her win

Elan Lee · 1:12:00

the game cannot have any losers. it can have a winner, but it cannot have any losers

Elan Lee · 1:12:30

unless i know what what success looks like, i'll just stay in brainstorming mode forever

Elan Lee · 1:13:30
#design-criteria#hurry-up-chicken-butt#naming#packaging#constraints

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway20:00

What would you do if you knew you would fail? Picking projects by process, not outcome

Tim explains what actually made him reach out to Elan, and it is not a business case. His New Year's resolutions for the last few years have been broad but specific: more figure-it-out delegation — here is roughly what I want, make the best decisions you can, do not come back with twelve options — and sprints with creatives, because as a lifelong solo operator he had decided it simply was not fun anymore to do everything alone. Those two guiding lights gave him the courage to awkwardly ask Elan, in his own description like asking someone out on a first date, whether they might make a game together. He then offers Seth Godin's reframe of the standard question. What would you do if you knew you could not fail is freeing, but Godin tweaks it: what would you do if you knew you would fail? In other words, what would you do for which the process alone would make it worth it. Tim's answer was this project — he had become fast friends with Elan, which he says is rare for him as an adult, and he had been banging the idea around in his head for years. Elan tells the mirror side: he and Tim met five or six times, played games all night, made no progress, and his wife would ask if the two-thousand-mile trip had been a disappointment. It was not. Tim's rule is to pick projects by whether they create or deepen relationships and develop skills, on the grounds that if you do that over time, winning becomes almost inevitable.

  • Tim's two standing resolutions were figure-it-out delegation and creative sprints, both aimed at reducing decision fatigue and solo work.
  • Seth Godin's reframe is what would you do if you knew you would fail, which selects for processes worth living rather than outcomes worth having.
  • Elan's filter for celebrity game partnerships is asking why, and the usual answers are an agent's advice or money.
  • What convinced Elan about Tim was that the motive was personal and the goal was to give a gift, not to monetise a name.
  • Choosing projects that deepen relationships and build skills makes some form of winning close to inevitable over time.

what would you do if you knew you would fail? in other words, what would you do for which the process alone would make it…

Tim Ferriss · 24:00

whenever i ask them the question, why? the answer is invariably because my agent told me to or because i think i can make money

Elan Lee · 22:30

taking the lens of picking projects based on creating or deepening relationships and learning/developing skills, if you just do that over time, it is almost…

Tim Ferriss · 26:00
#project-selection#seth-godin#collaboration#motivation#delegation

tactic· 6

tactic34:00

Sharpies, blank cards and the birth of the modifier deck

Tim shows the original prototype deck on camera and makes the case that quick and dirty is the only way to go, citing Stephen Key, author of One Simple Idea, who has made enormous money inventing games and toys using construction paper, glue and markers you would find in a second grade classroom — enough to build a pitch, sell it, and generate licensing annuities. Elan's own prototypes were equally janky: blank cards bought by the thousands on Amazon, Sharpies, and dice with the nubs sanded off so he could hand-write new faces. He describes building the very first Coyote deck. He made a rock card, a paper card, and a scissors card, and asked what if these were not tools to fight each other with but a challenge the table had to solve together — everyone does scissors, now everyone does paper, now rock. He is candid that this game is useless, but it was a baseline. Then came modifiers: all players do all blue cards, skip a player after every red card, shout every blue card. Cards ended up spread across the table because the challenge kept getting more interesting. The next leap was responsibility — instead of splashing cards down, each player in turn must add a card that makes the challenge harder. Rock, paper and scissors were eliminated early for being boring, replaced by peace signs, ballerina poses and slapping the shoulder of the person next to you. Shouting cards were tested and cut for getting old fast. Elan's summary: stalled at one percent for months, then eighty percent of the game in a week, because the answer after every session was let's go again.

  • Elan prototypes with blank cards bought by the thousand and Sharpies, and has sanded the faces off dice to hand-write on them.
  • The first Coyote build inverted rock paper scissors from a duel into a cooperative pattern the whole table performs.
  • Modifier cards — colour rules, skips, shouts — were what made the baseline challenge interesting.
  • Making each player responsible for adding a card that increases difficulty turned a pattern exercise into a game.
  • The litmus test for continuing was the reflexive 'let's go again' at the end of every session.

so ran home and started scribbling on cards. these are just blank cards. i took sharpies. i i buy these like by the thousands on…

Elan Lee · 36:30

but over the next week, i would say we designed 80% of the game. we were at this like stalled at 1% mode for months

Elan Lee · 39:30

every time we played some version of this, the immediate answer when we were done playing was let's go again

Elan Lee · 39:30
#prototyping#iteration#playtesting#modifiers#stephen-key
tactic51:30

Cut the chips, flip the cards face up, and let the loser punch back

Tim asks what other golden rules govern design at Exploding Kittens, and Elan offers one immediately: if a component does not need to be in the game, remove it from the game. The worked example is Coyote's lives or strikes, originally tracked with bingo chips, which turned out to be unnecessary because you can simply flip a card over and use its back. The second and larger cut concerns the hand of cards. Every game you have played — Uno included — gives you a hand, a private decision and a revealed card. Elan asked whether there was a simpler version, and there was: put the cards face up on the table and choose from them in the open. It is nearly identical mechanically but now public, which changes the social texture of every turn. From there the conversation moves to the problem of asymmetric skill. During playtesting, one group contained a mathematician who was also a high-level chess player and simply smoked everybody. Tim's contribution — which Elan credits and says he was not taking enough credit for — was to take an existing modifier such as everyone must do all movements with Tyrannosaurus arms, and instead of applying it to all blue cards, slide it in front of one specific player so only they suffer it on every turn. That is a curse, and it lets the last place player attack the first place player, a Mario Kart feeling. Elan's response was I don't know, let's try it, and it was glorious. His broader point is that Tim could make the suggestion because he had by then learned to speak like a game designer: instead of saying we should sabotage people, he said some people are naturally good at this and some are naturally bad, and we need to give the bad ones a tool.

  • Elan's stated tenet is that any component which does not need to be in the game should be removed from it.
  • Bingo chips tracking lives were replaced by flipping existing cards over.
  • Moving from a hidden hand to face-up cards keeps the decision but makes it public and social.
  • Attack cards let a trailing player curse the leader, solving asymmetric skill without changing the core rules.
  • Tim could contribute the mechanic because he had acquired the vocabulary to state the problem in design terms.

if a component does not need to be in the game, remove it from the game

Elan Lee · 51:30

take some cards, put them all face up on the table, and then decide which one you're going to pick

Elan Lee · 52:30

you had learned at that point to speak like a game designer

Elan Lee · 56:00
#component-design#simplicity#attack-cards#playtesting#design-vocabulary
tactic1:17:30

The kitty test pilots: 400 families, one question, five copies at a time

Elan explains what would have happened had Tim partnered with any other games company: internal testing, then a market research group that pulls in strangers, sits them behind a one-way mirror with a crappy catered lunch, has them play and rate the game one to ten, and returns a stack of forms. His objection is contextual — nobody plays board games with strangers, so the procedure the whole industry uses is fundamentally flawed. Exploding Kittens tried it once, and Elan looked at the results and realised they had just burned twenty-five thousand dollars on something useless. Since nothing better existed they built it. He reached out first to their Kickstarter community, then Discord, then Reddit, offering a free prototype they keep forever in exchange for playing it with their own friends and family within twenty-four hours of receipt and sending the recorded session. Within about twelve months four hundred families had signed up — the kitty test pilots. They fill out no questionnaire; at the end they look into the camera and answer the only question the team cares about: do you want to play again. Elan concedes false positives are unsolvable, which is exactly why the video is mandatory — you count the eye rolls, or catch the wide-eyed inhale as someone opens the instructions, signals no survey could ever capture because testers do not know they are doing them. Videos go to Vimeo, are watched at 4x by a team that flags moments without diagnosing them, and a second team diagnoses the flags. Only five copies go out at a time so each cohort's feedback changes the next version, with six to eight months to work through the panel. Internally, testing moves off the design team fast and onto accounting and sales, who have never seen the game.

  • Conventional games market research puts strangers in a mirrored room, which is invalid because nobody plays board games with strangers.
  • A single conventional study cost Exploding Kittens twenty-five thousand dollars and produced nothing usable.
  • Four hundred families receive free prototypes to keep, play within twenty-four hours, and film the session in their own homes.
  • The single closing question, answered on camera, is do you want to play again.
  • Prototypes ship five at a time so every cohort produces a product change, and internal testing moves off the design team to accounting and sales.

nobody plays games like that. you don't play games with strangers

Elan Lee · 1:19:00

the only question we care about, do you want to play again?

Elan Lee · 1:20:30

i got 400 test families, but i'm only going to send out five games at a time

Elan Lee · 1:23:00
#playtesting#user-research#community#video-feedback#product-validation
tactic1:30:30

70% of sales are on a shelf — so test the coyote's hat, earring and wink

Tim asks for a number Elan says they never share: what percentage of sales are offline retail versus online. The answer is seventy percent in-person retail, thirty percent online — totally backwards from what you would expect for almost any industry. People want to walk into a store, see and touch and flip the game over and compare it to others. That has two consequences. Retail buying meetings are existential, and the game must sell itself on the shelf, stopping a shopper walking past hundreds of games. So Exploding Kittens works with retailers on colour scheme and character and runs surveys designed to stop people in their tracks. Tim offers his own lineage of the same practice. For The 4-Hour Workweek he bid on subject-related keywords in Google AdWords so around ten title and subtitle candidates were automatically split-tested, each pointing to a different URL that led to an under-construction page, because he cared about interest sufficient to click rather than conversion. For the cover, he placed different covers on a same-sized book in the new non-fiction section at Borders on University Avenue in Palo Alto and counted pickups with a bouncer's clicker over peak hours. Modern equivalents they used for Coyote include PickFu, Intellivy and Sticky Beak, which serve variants to fine-sliced demographics. The Coyote character went through variants with no hat, no earring, both eyes open to camera, both eyes looking off to the side, all against a saffron-orange and lime-green scheme Tim spent absurd amounts of time on, photographing backlit leaves to nail the Pantone. Elan's highest praise is for Tim's discipline: asked his opinion, he said he had one but did not want to give it — let's test it. The winner was not even close.

  • Seventy percent of Exploding Kittens sales are in-person retail and only thirty percent online, the inverse of most industries.
  • Because most buyers are browsing a shelf of hundreds of games, the box must stop them dead in their tracks unaided.
  • Tim split-tested The 4-Hour Workweek's title with Google AdWords and its cover with a physical clicker count at Borders.
  • Coyote's character and colours were resolved on demographic panels using PickFu, Intellivy and Sticky Beak.
  • Tim deliberately withheld his own opinion so the panel would not be anchored, and the winning variant won by a wide margin.

70% of our sales are in-person retail. only 30% are online sales. totally backwards than what you'd expect for almost any industry

Elan Lee · 1:31:00

i cared about interest, sufficient interest to click

Tim Ferriss · 1:33:00

and to your credit, your answer was always, let's test it

Elan Lee · 1:36:30
#retail#split-testing#packaging#market-research#cover-design
tactic1:37:30

Inside the line review: suitcases, forced play, meal-time slots and the glory spot

This is the tactical core of the selling half. Elan tells the story of Coyote's first line review with Walmart in Bentonville, which Tim could not attend because the slot was immovable. Tim's fix was a recorded video of unfiltered passion about why he made the game and why it was the first thing he had put his name on. Elan walked in, refused to describe the game, set it up and made the buyers play; within five minutes they were laughing and asking how he intended to sell it, at which point he played Tim's video. The result was a full-line purchase — every single store — which Elan says has never happened for them on an initial pitch. He then generalises. You are always their tenth meeting, so the first job is breaking them out of the funk with enthusiasm, props and video. He brings two oversized checked suitcases of beautiful games, including ones he is not pitching and ones that will never ship, because the premise is that Exploding Kittens is a world, not a product. Buyers ask him to skip the play and just pitch; he says no, and forces every game. He orchestrates the four thoughts of the mastery ladder, then pulls the game away right when they want more and moves to the commercial half. He opens with the shortest, easiest pitch — usually an Exploding Kittens expansion — puts the real target in the glory second spot, treats the next five as equal and sells them all, and accepts that the last two will not land. He wears the creative-guy uniform of t-shirt and jeans because a suit costs him credibility. Agents in Bentonville and Minneapolis lobby for slots right after breakfast or lunch, read the retailer's all-hands notes, and brief him on what buyers get promoted for. And retailers have annual colour themes your boxes should match.

  • Coyote's first Walmart line review produced a full-line purchase, unprecedented for an Exploding Kittens initial pitch.
  • Elan refuses to pitch and forces buyers to play, then removes the game at the peak of their engagement.
  • The sequence is fixed: easiest pitch first for momentum, the real target second in the glory spot, and nothing important last.
  • Agents lobby for post-meal slots, read retailer all-hands notes, and reveal what buyers are incentivised on that year.
  • Small signals compound — matching the retailer's annual colour theme and wearing the creative-guy uniform both make yes easier.

you first you have to keep in mind you are their 10th meeting

Elan Lee · 1:44:30

and usually they say, we don't have time to play. can you just pitch it? and i say, no, we're going to play a game

Elan Lee · 1:46:00

the number two spot is the glory spot

Elan Lee · 1:48:30
#line-review#sales-tactics#retail-buyers#agents#pitching
tactic1:55:30

Car hole: the two sentences that make a short-form video work

Elan explains what changed in the sales meeting over three years. The marketing plan you used to show was your website, some TV commercials, billboards and a bit of product placement. Today none of that matters — all buyers care about is social media, because it is the only form of game marketing that still works, and short-form video and casual games are a natural fit now that every platform pushes the format to compete with TikTok. The creative brief reduces to two sentences, which Elan says took him forever to reach: the viewer must think, I understand what those people are experiencing right now, and I would like to experience that. Everything he tried before failed — show gameplay, show setup, show a memorable moment, show people screaming and yelling because they are having so much fun. None of it works. The proof is Exploding Kittens' single most effective piece of media, a Poetry for Neanderthals clip with tens of millions of views. The rules are trivially legible because the secret word, garage, is shown on screen: a player must get a teammate to say it using only single-syllable words, and a mistake earns a bonk from a giant inflatable Neanderthal club. He says car go here, car hole, car hole, this car hole, big car hole, and everyone is losing it while the guesser demands to know what a car hole is. It works because you see the experience and you also think you could do better than that. Elan brings hard numbers on views, likes, shares and subscriptions into the line review, then presents the specific video planned for the new game framed in the same two sentences — which now takes up about half of every game's slot in the meeting.

  • Social is now the only marketing that works for games; website, TV, billboards and product placement no longer register with buyers.
  • The entire creative brief is two thoughts: I understand what they are experiencing, and I want to experience that.
  • Showing gameplay, setup, memorable moments or people laughing does not on its own produce either thought.
  • The garage clip works because the audience is given the secret word, making the rules and the struggle instantly legible.
  • The corollary thought — I could do better than that — is what converts a viewer into someone who wants to play.

today, none of that matters. all they care about is social media because that's the only form of marketing for games that works anymore

Elan Lee · 1:56:00

that looks like fun. i could have that much fun. that's it. that's what you're trying to show

Elan Lee · 1:57:00

i see the experience they're having. i get that. and the secondary sort of corlary is i could do better than that

Elan Lee · 1:59:00
#social-media#short-form-video#marketing#tiktok#creative-brief