TThe Tim Ferriss Show
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30 June 2020

#444: Hugh Jackman on Best Decisions, Daily Routines, The 85% Rule, Favorite Exercises, Mind Training, and Much More

11Frameworks
16Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Mindset6 steps

Desire Over Duty

Drop the obligation from a good habit and find out whether you actually want it.

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Mindset7 steps

Gut Over the Strategic Plan

When the plan in your head and the feeling in your gut disagree, the plan is usually the one that is wrong.

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Peak Performance7 steps

The 85% Rule

Run at 85 percent effort and you will beat the version of you that ran at 100.

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Self-Mastery7 steps

The Art of Living Coach

Federer has a full-time coach and Pavarotti had a singing teacher — why would you coach yourself at life?

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Productivity7 steps

The Daily Design

Write tomorrow in the past tense, send it to someone, then score it out of ten.

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Entrepreneurship7 steps

The Five-Year Career Contract

Treat your craft like a business you just opened: seven days a week for five years, then reassess.

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Self-Mastery6 steps

The Monkey-Mind Mantra

Give the restless mind a pointless job so it stops running the show.

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Self-Mastery7 steps

The Patrick Stewart Morning Read

Wake 30 minutes earlier and give the first input of your day to a book, not a screen.

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Peak Performance8 steps

The Performer's Energy Reservoir

Protect the reserves before the show, not after, because some of them do not replenish.

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Peak Performance7 steps

The Rower Minimum Effective Dose

Seven minutes on the rower, four times a week, plus push-ups — that is the whole programme.

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Leadership7 steps

Your Religion Is In Your Actions

Let people notice how you behave rather than telling them what you believe.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Explainer· 1

Explainer15:30

The monkey mind, the mantra, and the glass of cloudy water

Jackman was introduced to Transcendental Meditation at drama school at 23 and, at 51, is still practising. He explains the mechanism without mysticism. The nature of the mind is to always be working and always be thinking, and the trick to life is not letting that be your master but letting it be a servant — because once it is running the show it is very easy to get off track. The mantra is how you demote it. The mind is often called the monkey mind, and a monkey is very energetic: if it is not given something to do it will be mischievous. So the mantra is like telling the monkey to climb to the top of the telegraph pole, then climb back down, then climb back up. Occupied with a pointless errand, it stops causing trouble, and the silently repeated word ends up fading away. His description of the result is the clearest image in the episode: when you first pour a glass of water it is cloudy, and after a period of time it all settles and you see crystal clear through the glass. He gets a feeling of things dropping down, of coming home, of experiencing his true self rather than being caught up in the monkey mind or reactive to life. Sometimes he falls asleep, which he says is totally fine and clearly what his body needed. He does not always come out ready to do a Peloton class, but he always comes out with what he calls a finer energy.

  • The mind's nature is to always be working, so the goal is reassignment rather than silence.
  • The trick to life is not letting the mind be your master but letting it be a servant.
  • The mantra works by giving the energetic monkey mind a pointless job so it stops being mischievous.
  • The silently repeated word is designed to fade away on its own rather than be gripped.
  • The effect is settling, like cloudy water going clear when left alone.
  • The output is a finer energy — clearer intention, more purposeful listening, and things feeling easier and more connected.

the trick to life is not letting that might be your master but to let it be a servant

Hugh Jackman · 16:00

the mind is often called the monkey mind and these some philosophies so monkey you know is very energetic and if not given something to…

Hugh Jackman · 16:30

when you first pour a glass of water it's cloudy

Hugh Jackman · 17:00

i always come out with a finer energy it feels my intention feels clearer my listening is more purposeful

Hugh Jackman · 18:00
#meditation#transcendental-meditation#mantra#monkey-mind#clarity

Story· 7

Story19:30

Born for the stage, and the Chariots of Fire line that still makes him cry

Tim relays a mutual friend, Peter, who can work 12 to 14 hours a day seven days a week for years, and who told Tim he could not conceive of doing what Jackman does even twice a week. Jackman flips the frame — he finds Tim's hundred-mile swims equally incomprehensible, and says that watching the documentary Kim Swims makes him wonder what the human body is capable of. But he knows in his heart that he was born to be on the stage, and it took him a long time to feel the same thing on a soundstage. He anchors it in his favourite quote from any film: Chariots of Fire, where Eric Liddell's sister accuses him of wasting time on a silly running thing when there is God's work to do in China, and he simply looks at her and says that he feels God's pleasure when he runs. Jackman says the line always makes him tear up just saying it, and that is exactly what he feels on stage. It is the advice he keeps giving his own children — don't settle, find the thing that resonates with you that way, where you feel the pleasure of the universe or of consciousness, some joy that means you can do it longer and it is not such a Herculean effort.

  • Tim's friend Peter, a relentless worker, could not imagine performing at Jackman's frequency even twice a week.
  • Jackman finds ultra-endurance feats equally incomprehensible, so the capacity is domain-specific rather than general.
  • He knows in his heart he was born to be on the stage, and it took years to feel the same on a film set.
  • The Eric Liddell line — that he feels God's pleasure when he runs — is his favourite quote in any film and still makes him tear up.
  • The natural energy is why the output is not a Herculean effort.
  • His advice to his kids is not to settle until they find the thing that resonates that way.

i know in my heart that i was born to be on the stage

Hugh Jackman · 21:30

but i feel his pleasure when i run

Hugh Jackman · 22:00

find that thing that resonates with you in that way

Hugh Jackman · 22:30
#calling#energy#chariots-of-fire#vocation#stage
Story27:30

The nervousness before the interview, and the doubts that fuelled a career

In an unguarded aside, Jackman admits he was a little nervous before the recording — not talk-show nervous, but nervous because this is the only piece of media he actually consumes and is now participating in. He says he has learned more from the show in the last two years than from anywhere except his inner circle, naming Seth Godin and Esther Perel among the guests who changed things for him. Then he names the source of the nerves precisely: a habitual thought pattern telling him he is not the person people are going to listen to on the Tim Ferriss show, the same doubts that he says have clearly fuelled him in his life. He offers it, in his words, to be completely open and honest. Tim responds with something close to a public character reference, saying there is always a risk in meeting your heroes and that Jackman is, with friends, family and fans alike, everything someone would hope him to be. His example is a pattern rather than an incident: Jackman shakes hands with everyone he meets and extends the same courtesy from a janitor to a prime minister. Jackman later complicates this himself, wondering aloud whether that is the real him or the alter ego his coach calls Perfect Tommy.

  • Jackman was genuinely nervous, because the podcast is the one piece of media he consumes and now had to participate in.
  • He says he has learned more from the show in two years than anywhere outside his inner circle.
  • The nerves came from a habitual thought that he is not who people tune in to hear.
  • He names those doubts as having fuelled his career while also being a burden.
  • Tim's observation is a behavioural pattern: identical courtesy to everyone from janitor to prime minister.
  • Tim notes that this kind of consistency is not how someone popped out of the womb — it takes deliberate thought and practice.

i have learned more from your show in the last two years than anywhere else

Hugh Jackman · 28:00

those doubts that clearly have fueled me in my life

Hugh Jackman · 29:00

you are polite to everyone i mean i've seen you you shake hands with everyone you meet

Tim Ferriss · 30:30
#self-doubt#authenticity#character#vulnerability#reputation
Story31:00

Your religion should be in your actions: his father's few maxims

Tim reads a line from an old Good Housekeeping interview: in a fellowship where everyone wore the fish symbol to mark themselves as Christian, the teenage Jackman asked his father why he did not wear it at work, and his father said your religion should be in your actions. Jackman fills in the context. His father was converted by Billy Graham and his mother was not, a divergence that contributed to the end of their marriage; his mother left when he was eight and he was raised primarily by his father, an accountant at Price Waterhouse and a Rhodes Scholar. His father rarely offered maxims, but the few he had stuck. At 13 or 14 Jackman brought home a fish sticker for the car and was disappointed by the answer, thinking it a cop-out. Only later did he see the mechanism: if people know through your actions, it is far more powerful when someone eventually says there is something about you, I do not know what it is, but I would love to know where I can get it — because then there is an opening. The other maxims: you cannot over-invest in education, and if in doubt, go and learn more. A strict ethics on keeping your word — if you accept a mate's invitation and the Queen invites you an hour later, you stick with the first one. And from his mother, the line she still says: everyone needs to feel appreciated, no matter who they are.

  • His father was converted by Billy Graham; his mother was not, and the divergence contributed to the end of the marriage.
  • Jackman initially read 'your religion should be in your actions' as a cop-out and only later saw its power.
  • The mechanism is that observed behaviour prompts an unprompted question, which is a real opening.
  • You cannot over-invest in education — if ever in doubt about what to do, go and learn more.
  • The ethics test: a prior invitation from a mate outranks a later one from the Queen of England.
  • From his mother: everyone needs to feel appreciated, which Jackman extends via Brené Brown to being seen for who you are.
  • He credits his wife Deb with acting purely from instinct where he sometimes acts from trained manners.

and he said your religion should be in your actions

Tim Ferriss · 31:00

you cannot over invest in education that's one he would say to us

Hugh Jackman · 32:00

everyone needs to feel appreciated it doesn't matter

Hugh Jackman · 33:30

you keep your word no even if it does not benefit you you always keep your word

Hugh Jackman · 37:00
#integrity#values#parenting#ethics#modelling
Story39:30

The journalism degree and the sliding doors moment three weeks from graduation

Tim asks how Jackman came to be so articulate, noting he originally studied communications at the University of Technology in Sydney intending to become a journalist. Jackman traces it to family: he was always in the debate team, his brother is one of Australia's most successful barristers and an incredible debater, and his father — a Rhodes Scholar — would eviscerate you in one line if you were not on your game. There was family dinner every night and Sunday lunch, always with conversation. He was accepted into a dual economics and law degree, took a gap year, and realised it was not for him, switching to a new communications course he knew little about. The turn came in his final semester. He filled an elective with a theatre class chosen specifically because a friend said it was the easiest option — four hours a week, no exam, no play. That year the course decided to stage a play for the first time in its history, and by ballot, with no auditions, Jackman got the lead. Touring it to another university, he walked into a student house thick with the smell of weed and felt all over his body that he had made a mistake — that he should have been doing this course. Three weeks from graduating in journalism, he had turned right where he should have turned left.

  • The articulacy came from debate teams, a barrister brother, a Rhodes Scholar father and nightly family conversation.
  • He abandoned a dual economics and law degree during a gap year in favour of a new communications course.
  • He took the theatre elective specifically because a friend promised it required no exam and no play.
  • The course staged a play for the first time in its history and he won the lead by ballot, with no audition.
  • He realised on graduating that he had spent 90 percent of his time on the play and loved it.
  • Walking into a theatre students' house on tour produced a full-body certainty that he had chosen wrong.
  • He graduated as a journalism major anyway and went straight to study acting.

my father was a rhodes scholar you had to be on your game or he would literally eviscerate you in one line

Hugh Jackman · 41:00

i realize i've just spent 90% of my time doing that play and loving it

Hugh Jackman · 43:30

i had this feeling all over my body that i'd made a mistake that i should have been here

Hugh Jackman · 44:00
#career-change#intuition#education#sunk-cost#origin-story
Story51:30

Saying yes to Beauty and the Beast, and the label that nearly cost him film

Asked for his best early decisions, Jackman names drama school first, then the attitude he graduated with: you have to say yes to everything, just say yes, go for everything. The test case arrived when his agent called about auditioning to play Gaston in Beauty and the Beast. His reaction was that he was a theatre actor, not a singer. She thought he should go for it, so he said yes, got singing lessons, and got the part — and his contract stipulated a company-paid singing lesson every week, which he suspects makes him unique in the history of the profession. Singing eight times a week with a weekly lesson is, he says, really where he learned to sing. Then the cost showed up. He started getting well known for the musical, and saw a list posted at the theatre describing him as Hugh Jackman, comma, singer. His immediate reaction was that he was being labelled, that this was going to be a problem — and it was. There was, at least in Australia, a snobbishness about musical theatre: you were a performer, not an actor, jazz hands rather than craft. He could not get a film audition at all, which drove him crazy, and so he made a decision to get out of musical theatre entirely until he had established himself as an actor.

  • His graduate rule was to say yes to everything and go for everything.
  • He considered himself a theatre actor and not a singer when the Beauty and the Beast audition came up.
  • His contract required a company-paid weekly singing lesson, which is where he actually learned to sing.
  • Seeing himself listed as 'Hugh Jackman, singer' at the theatre triggered an immediate sense of being labelled.
  • Australian snobbishness about musical theatre treated performers as non-actors, and he could not get a film audition.
  • He responded by deciding to leave musical theatre until his acting career was established.

you got to say yes to everything when you graduate just say yes go for everything

Hugh Jackman · 51:30

they had hugh jackman comma singer

Hugh Jackman · 53:00

i couldn't get an audition for film

Hugh Jackman · 53:00
#saying-yes#typecasting#skill-acquisition#career-strategy#musical-theatre
Story53:30

The audition he did not want to win, and the role he should not have refused

These are the two decisions that taught Jackman to trust his gut, and they are exact mirrors. Having sworn off musicals, he learned Trevor Nunn was coming to Melbourne to do Sunset Boulevard. Nunn had been a huge hero through drama school, the Royal Shakespeare Company the dream. So Jackman rang the casting director — a move he now calls pretty arrogant — and asked a favour: he wanted to meet Trevor and audition for him, but he did not want the job. She agreed through gritted teeth. The audition became the most incredible hour he has ever spent; Nunn heard him sing and worked with him for 40 minutes, and about halfway through Jackman decided that if offered the part he would take it, musical or not. He got it, learned an enormous amount, and Nunn went on to cast him in Oklahoma in London — which gave him the confidence to take on the world stage. Then the mirror. Three musicals in and still unable to get a film audition, he doubled down on his no-musicals rule. When The Boy From Oz was pitched to him he had exactly the same gut feeling — this is going to be amazing, you have to do it — but his head cited the commitment, so he turned it down. Two years later he watched the show and was sick to his stomach, because it was everything he had known it would be.

  • Jackman asked a casting director to arrange an audition for a job he explicitly did not want, purely to meet Trevor Nunn.
  • The audition became the most incredible hour he has spent, and halfway through he changed his mind about the job.
  • Nunn cast him in Sunset Boulevard and then Oklahoma in London, which gave him the confidence for the world stage.
  • The lesson he draws is simply that when you have that gut feeling, go with it.
  • He then overrode the identical feeling on The Boy From Oz because of a rule he had made for himself.
  • Seeing the show two years later made him physically sick, because it was exactly what he had sensed.
  • He concludes that he was making a strategic plan in his head and it was wrong.

i really want to meet him but i've made this decision i've got to go into acting but can you just do me a favor…

Hugh Jackman · 54:30

when you have that gut feeling go with it and i haven't always done that by the way

Hugh Jackman · 55:30

there i was making some strategic plan in my head and it was wrong

Hugh Jackman · 56:30

from that moment on i have always followed my gut on stuff even if it doesn't make sense

Hugh Jackman · 57:00
#intuition#career-decisions#regret#mentorship#trevor-nunn
Story59:30

Praying for clarity, reading the signs, and the cheque for the exact amount

Tim asks how Jackman relates to intuition now, admitting he has spent much of his own life trapped in the front of his brain, over-analysing, and overriding feelings about deals and partnerships he should have listened to. Jackman calls this probably the most vexing and vital thing to work out in a life, and shares something he says he has never said publicly. Raised in a very religious household, his instructions for life came through the parables, and he remembers praying nightly with an unusual request: he did not care what God wanted him to do — if it was collecting rubbish, he would collect rubbish — he only wanted it made clear. His summary line is the key one: he had much more fear of being on the wrong path than of failing at a path. The essence survived his changing views on religion, becoming what Joseph Campbell called following your bliss — a calling beyond the conscious brain's strategising. His illustration is the cheque. Accepted off the reserve list into a one-year acting course, he got a letter demanding a three-and-a-half-thousand-dollar tuition fee. Having just graduated and unwilling to ask his father, he ripped the letter up and binned it. The next day a cheque arrived from his grandmother's will, for exactly three and a half thousand dollars.

  • Jackman prayed nightly not for success but for clarity about which path was his.
  • He feared being on the wrong path far more than he feared failing on one.
  • He connects the feeling to Eric Liddell in Chariots of Fire and Joseph Campbell's follow your bliss.
  • He still battles it because he can be dominated by pros-and-cons thinking.
  • Four years with life coach Lauren Zander have gone into clarifying priorities so turning points become clear.
  • He ripped up the acceptance letter rather than ask his father for the tuition fee.
  • A cheque from his grandmother's will arrived the next day for the exact amount, which he reads as a wallop in the face from the universe.

i had much more fear of being on the wrong path then i had fear of failing at a path

Hugh Jackman · 1:01:00

there is some calling that is beyond the conscious brains strategizing of how to be happy and successful in meaningful in life

Hugh Jackman · 1:01:30

i literally ripped up the letter screwed it up put it in the bin

Hugh Jackman · 1:05:00

i manifest every single day that i will hear those messages

Hugh Jackman · 1:06:00
#intuition#signs#calling#decision-making#manifestation

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway18:00

Letting go of the duty element after 25 years of practice

Asked whether he still runs the traditional twice-daily TM format, Jackman gives an unusually honest answer about habit design. He did it very regularly twice a day from 23 onwards, but three or four years before the recording he let go of what he calls the duty element. He is precise about what that duty sounded like from inside, and identifies it as a mode he can be guilty of generally: this is good for you, you should be doing this, don't fall off that wagon, you know it's a slippery slope. So he ran an experiment on himself with a single rule — meditate when you really want to meditate. Rather than the practice collapsing, it resolved into a truer shape. The morning sit became unconditional, every morning for sure, held by desire rather than obligation. The second sit did not vanish either; it became context-triggered, so when he is on a movie set or working in theatre there will always be a second one, while on ordinary days he lets the afternoon session go. And where his body objects he adapts rather than forces: restless leg syndrome makes it uncomfortable to sit for 20 minutes after four or five in the afternoon, so when he does sit twice, the second one happens around lunchtime.

  • Jackman ran TM twice daily from 23 until his late forties before changing anything.
  • The duty script he identified was about wagons, slippery slopes and shoulds rather than about benefit.
  • The experiment was a single rule: meditate only when you really want to.
  • The morning session survived unconditionally and became every-morning-for-sure.
  • The second session became context-triggered by performance work rather than calendar-enforced.
  • Restless leg syndrome after four or five in the afternoon moved the second sit to lunchtime rather than killing it.

i kind of let go of the duty element there was and i can be guilty of this

Hugh Jackman · 18:30

you meditate when you really want to meditate and that has turned into a practice where it's every morning for sure

Hugh Jackman · 19:00

i get restless leg syndrome so after about four or five o'clock it's uncomfortable

Hugh Jackman · 19:30
#habits#intrinsic-motivation#meditation#self-experiment#perfectionism

tactic· 5

tactic07:30

The morning reading ritual stolen from Patrick Stewart

Tim opens on an anecdote from his research: that Jackman and his wife read to each other in the mornings. Jackman confirms it happens every day and says outright that he nicked the idea from Patrick Stewart. Stewart, on set with him, explained that at around 60 he had done the calculation and realised he would never read all the books he wanted to read. His solution was structural rather than aspirational — whatever time his call was, if he was being picked up at five, he woke 30 minutes earlier than he otherwise would have, made a cup of tea and went back to bed with a book. The exclusions matter as much as the inclusion: no newspaper because it makes him angry, no email because it makes him anxious and gets his mind going, no scripts because that is work. And the reason for doing it first thing is that the day just gets away from you — you tell yourself you will read in the evening and you do not. Jackman built it out into a couple's routine: he makes a coffee for himself and a tea for Deb, takes a cold shower he learned from The 4-Hour Body while training for Wolverine, then they read aloud to each other for at least 30 minutes and meditate together. They are currently on David Brooks's The Second Mountain.

  • Patrick Stewart calculated at 60 that he would never read all the books he wanted, and started waking 30 minutes earlier no matter what his call time was.
  • The three banned morning inputs are the newspaper, email and scripts — anger, anxiety and work respectively.
  • Reading is front-loaded specifically because the evening version never happens.
  • Jackman and Deb read the same book aloud to each other, splitting it half and half.
  • The block stacks a cold shower and a joint meditation onto the same anchor.
  • Tim recognises the failure mode immediately — deferring quality time to dinner and then losing it to the day.

every day i nicked the idea from patrick stewart

Hugh Jackman · 08:00

i don't read the paper because it makes me angry i don't read my emails coz it usually makes me anxious

Hugh Jackman · 08:30

the reason i do it first thing in the morning is the day just gets away from you

Hugh Jackman · 09:00
#morning-routine#reading#relationships#habits#patrick-stewart
tactic23:00

Broadway self-care rules and the minute in the wings

Jackman lays out the engineering behind eight shows a week. On Broadway he has a bunch of rules. No alcohol before, and really limited after, because it is really important to wake up in a good frame of mind rather than in catch-up mode — if you wake wanting to go back to bed and you have to perform that evening, anxiety arrives and you will be withdrawing on reserves that are not replenishable. He never goes out after a show, and makes it a blanket rule rather than a nightly decision, because the party he has just had on stage is better than anything he can imagine anywhere else. He gets quiet afterwards to let the show's considerable energy settle, and reckons he is the only actor he knows who can be asleep within 45 minutes of coming off stage — a state he compares to the peace after a bath following a great workout. He limits coffee because stage work means constantly battling dehydration. And he is religious about his pre-show routine, explicitly because it quiets his mind: he does not want the perfectionist monkey mind saying he skipped the warm-up or only half did it. Then the minute in the wings — listening to the audience arrive, remembering that they are seeing the show for the first and probably only time in their lives, and dedicating the performance to the service of the absolute.

  • No alcohol before a show and strictly limited after, because tomorrow's frame of mind is the real input.
  • Waking in catch-up mode means performing on reserves that are not replenishable.
  • Not going out after shows is a blanket rule, not a nightly negotiation.
  • The pre-show routine's purpose is denying the perfectionist inner voice any material.
  • He takes a full minute in the wings to pause and connect with the senses.
  • The audience is seeing the show for the first and probably only time, whatever number it is for him.
  • Acting teacher Lyle Jones's rule: expose yourself to ballet and classical music, because performing is giving out and the stores need filling.

in terms of self-care on broadway i have a bunch of rules

Hugh Jackman · 23:00

you're gonna be withdrawing on reserves that are not replenishable

Hugh Jackman · 24:00

they're not coming in to see my fourth show of the week they're coming to see the show for the first and probably only time…

Hugh Jackman · 26:00

you can't call yourself a real actor unless you expose yourself to ballet and classical music

Hugh Jackman · 27:00
#energy-management#rituals#broadway#recovery#boundaries
tactic46:30

The contract he made with himself at drama school

Tim asks about the contract Jackman made with himself at the end of drama school, and the answer turns out to be a small-business framework rather than an artistic one. Jackman graduated at 26 having worked as a gas station attendant, in restaurants, and in a koala suit for the National Parks and Wildlife Foundation, where he was punched in the kidneys by 14-year-olds. What he took from all of it was that if you start a business — a pizzeria, a bar, a restaurant, anything — you have to give it seven days a week for five years, and only then might you pull back, hire a manager, hire staff, having built the brand to a point. Nobody does it expecting an easy life; they do it because there is something they want to create and they do not want to be told what to do. In his last semester it dawned on him that acting is structurally identical: nobody employs him and sends him out, he has to re-hire every time, and his brand is his name. So he vowed never to wait for the phone to ring — he would write letters, and he and Simon Lyndon planned a theatre company, which Simon actually founded as the Rock Surfers in Bondi, still running 25 years later. He set the deadline at 31, explicitly to avoid becoming one of the people who stay a good ten years too long at the acting party.

  • The framework came from working in small businesses: seven days a week for five years before you can pull back at all.
  • Acting is structurally the same — no employer sends you out, you re-hire every time, and your brand is your name.
  • He vowed never to wait for the phone to ring, writing letters and planning a theatre company instead.
  • You cannot be a victim; you have to go out and generate and get your brand out there.
  • Five years from age 26 set the reassessment date at 31, chosen to avoid staying too long at the party.
  • He credits Ryan Holiday and stoicism for the posture: be stoic, be hopeful, but work your ass off.
  • At 31, having done X-Men, he sat himself down and signed on for another five years.

if you start a business it could be a pizzeria it can be a bar a restaurant anything you have to give it seven days…

Hugh Jackman · 47:00

so i vowed to never wait for the phone to ring

Hugh Jackman · 48:00

we all hear stories of people staying too long at the party

Hugh Jackman · 49:00

it's a privilege when you get a job and don't expect that always be one around the corner

Hugh Jackman · 50:00
#career-design#personal-brand#commitment#self-employment#deadlines
tactic1:03:30

The daily design, the score out of ten, and preparing to choke

Jackman writes a daily design every morning: an account of the day, in the past tense, as if it has already happened. He is emphatic about the grammar — it is not hope, not 'I think', not 'I hope I'm going to try', not 'I will'. His sample line is relational rather than professional: today my son and I had the best hour together, laughing and talking, connecting on elemental things in ways we have never connected. The dreams in it can be crazy and wild. He texts it every morning to his life coach Lauren Zander, on her principle that we all need to be accountable to someone, and reads it back that night — or the next morning if he is too tired — and scores it. He is honest about the bad days: reading it back and going wow, that was a four out of ten. Tim immediately generalises it as an accountability-partner practice: text in the morning, score against each other at 5 or 6pm. The clinching example is The Greatest Showman. Jackman was on the fence, the studio was on the fence, and Zander told him he was preparing to choke — laying the safety net, listing all the reasons outside himself it would fail — and gave him 24 hours to get on or get off. He hung up stunned, sat for an hour imagining what the film would be and why they were doing it, wrote it all down, and rewrote it every day through principal photography.

  • The daily design is written entirely in the past tense, which removes hope from the sentence.
  • The content is relational and specific — a quality of connection, not a task list.
  • He texts it to his coach every morning, because accountability requires a recipient.
  • He re-reads and scores it out of ten, including the honest four-out-of-tens.
  • Tim proposes the same structure between any two accountability partners.
  • Zander's diagnosis on The Greatest Showman was that he was preparing to choke and laying a safety net.
  • He rewrote the film's intended outcome every day until principal photography ended, then had to recommit again in editing.
  • His summary lesson: do not insure yourself for failure.

i do a daily design every day i create as if in the past tense of what the day had been

Hugh Jackman · 1:03:30

today my my son and i had the best hour together laughing and talking

Hugh Jackman · 1:12:30

i think you're preparing to choke i think you are laying the safety net for the greatest showman to be to not work

Hugh Jackman · 1:15:00

don't insure yourself for failure

Hugh Jackman · 1:17:30
#journaling#accountability#intention-setting#coaching#the-greatest-showman
tactic1:19:30

The rowing machine, the 85% rule, and what Carl Lewis did at 50 metres

Given the desert-island exercise question, Jackman answers immediately: the rowing machine. His reasoning is behavioural before physiological — there is a reason the row is usually empty at the gym, and that reason is that it is difficult, while a lot of people want to say it and feel they have worked out and get a sweat without doing what changes anything. He has standing: he worked in a gym for three years before The 4-Hour Body and watched people come in five days a week without changing anything about themselves. His prescription is small — the rower plus some chest work and push-ups is everything you need to keep fit, healthy and strong, at seven minutes four times a week with 2,000 metres as the goal, and he warns you will hate him at some point during it. From there the conversation opens into the 85% rule, learned from trainer Beth Lewis: tell most type-A athletes to run at 85 percent of capacity and they run faster than at 100, because it is more about relaxation and form. The origin is a sprint coach who spent a year unable to explain how Carl Lewis, routinely last at 40 metres, finished 10 yards clear — until a head-on camera shot showed him that at 50 and 60 metres Lewis did nothing, breathing and form unchanged, while everyone else's faces scrunched, jaws tightened and fists clenched.

  • The rower is empty because it is difficult, which is exactly why Jackman recommends it.
  • Three years working in a gym taught him that five sessions a week changes nothing if the stimulus is wrong.
  • The prescription is a seven-minute row four times a week, targeting 2,000 metres, plus push-ups and chest work.
  • Baz Luhrmann reversed his brief on Australia a month before shooting, and a rower-trainer put Jackman on the machine.
  • The 85% rule: told to run at 85 percent, type-A athletes run faster than when told to run at 100.
  • Carl Lewis won by not changing — breathing and form identical from 25 metres to the line while everyone else pushed.
  • Tim generalises it instantly to writing and almost anything, because being tense is not your friend.
  • Jackman's related habits: imagine the activity already done and gone well, and breathe in as though breathing out.

there's a reason the row is usually empty at the gym because it's difficult

Hugh Jackman · 1:20:00

i think they call it the 85% rule if you tell a most sort of a type athletes to run at their 85% capacity they…

Hugh Jackman · 1:21:30

goal is 2,000 meters and and when you try it at some point you're gonna hate me for it but still that's the quickest best…

Hugh Jackman · 1:23:00

whereas carl lewis stayed exactly the same and then it would just breeze past him so that's where he invented the 85% rule

Hugh Jackman · 1:27:30
#training#rowing#85-percent-rule#relaxation#carl-lewis

topic· 2

topic11:30

The books he gifts most, and the rule about gifting short ones

Asked which books he has gifted most, Jackman credits a friend he calls Saint Billy — Billy Shore, who runs No Kid Hungry and Share Our Strength — who came over one day with two books and a piece of gifting philosophy. The philosophy is that it is nice to receive books, but a big book can be a burden, because the recipient feels obliged to have read it by the time you next have dinner. So Billy gives short ones. The two he gave Jackman, and which Jackman now gives regularly, are David Foster Wallace's commencement speech This Is Water, which he describes as a 15-minute book, and E.B. White's Here Is New York — the product of a post-war programme that invited the greatest writers in the world to New York and simply paid them for three months to write essays about the city. Jackman finds it remarkable to read a 1949 account of New York and see how much of the spirit still resonates. He then breaks his own rule for one book: The Overstory by Richard Powers, gifted to him by Senator Gary Hart, which he calls the most transformative piece of fiction he has read in a long time. Tim admits he started it, cried for half an hour, then saw it was 0.001 percent complete.

  • Billy Shore's gifting rule: a long book is a burden because the recipient feels obliged to finish it before you meet again.
  • This Is Water is Jackman's default gift precisely because it is a 15-minute read.
  • Here Is New York came from a post-war programme paying great writers for three months just to write essays about the city.
  • The Overstory breaks the short-book rule and is, in his view, the most transformative fiction he has read in years.
  • The misdirection of The Overstory is that its eight human storylines resolve into a book whose real main character is trees.
  • Jackman promises it changes how you see the world when you walk outside, and Tim admits his complacency has been called out.

it's really nice to get books but it can be a burden to give a big book

Hugh Jackman · 12:30

that's the most transformative bit of fiction i have read in a long time

Hugh Jackman · 13:30

it works on you in the way nature does see it's patient and it's in no rush

Hugh Jackman · 15:00
#books#gifting#the-overstory#david-foster-wallace#nature
topic1:27:30

Jigsaw puzzles as meditation, and why the art of living deserves a coach

Jackman is a genuine connoisseur of puzzles, and his advice is specific: start with a thousand pieces, and do not pick the black-and-white photograph — get some colour, make it a little easier. He recommends the company Wentworth, whose pieces have some click technology that he compares, memorably, to squeezing a pimple. He got into it trying to find something he and his convalescing father could do together; his father lasted 30 minutes and quit, and Jackman, who had not done a puzzle since he was eight, became addicted enough to set an alarm to make himself go to bed. He does puzzles of places he has been or lived, and had a photo of himself and Deb on a favourite holiday made into one for Valentine's Day. The payoff he describes is attentional: you look at one scene for about a month, focusing on this building, that tree, and when you return to that place your appreciation of the world is enormously greater — the way an artist who has spent years on colour and composition sees a sunset. He calls it probably another form of meditation, something that stops his mind going, and notes his restless leg syndrome does not appear at all while doing it. Tim closes on noticing the little things as a big part of the art of living, and Jackman ends with his argument for coaching: Federer has a coach, Pavarotti had a singing teacher, so why not for life?

  • Start with a thousand pieces and colour, not a black-and-white image on the cover.
  • He got into puzzles trying to find a shared activity with his convalescing father, who quit after 30 minutes.
  • He does puzzles of places he has lived or visited, including a custom one made from a photo of himself and Deb.
  • A month of attention on one image permanently increases how much you notice in the real world.
  • He calls it another form of meditation that stops his mind going, and his restless leg syndrome disappears during it.
  • He used to dismiss coaching and therapy as an American affectation, and now calls that stance a little arrogant.
  • Federer keeps a coach and Pavarotti kept a singing teacher to the end — so why not invest that in the art of living?

don't don't pick up the black-and-white photo right on the front cover to start with have some color make it a little easier

Hugh Jackman · 1:28:30

i think it's probably another form of meditation in a way it stops my mind going

Hugh Jackman · 1:31:00

roger federer is the greatest tennis player of all time and he is half full time coach

Hugh Jackman · 1:33:00

why wouldn't we invest that in the art of living

Hugh Jackman · 1:33:30
#puzzles#attention#coaching#art-of-living#meditation